Author Topic: After Hours?  (Read 5087 times)

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Offline PSYCHO

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Re: After Hours?
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2007, 04:19:07 PM »
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  • This has been coming for a while.
    But a simpler answer to her question would be the 6ft-10ft floatation device strapped to a surfer's foot.




    My point was theyre not ready, Its like asking someone who can barely count to 5 to understand quantum physics. Its waaay too premauture & way bad that this is a reality, it wasnt something coming, its called poking at a bees nest with out having a plan of escape. Thats why I said Investigate, talk with the local people about the local issues 1rst, they know, theyve heard it before. Build a fundation1rst with small surf issues. Why do you think relitively docile people Like Mario & SnS, got all wild & protective suddenly. Becuase they know & hate when outsiders conme in poking around with things they dont know. I feel like Im gona get sick. Swimmers? c'mon now?

    Ive never seen anyone of you rush home from work for the epic swimming conditions.  :'( Way ahead here. We're surfers, not elected officials. Start thinkin like a surfer.
    « Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 04:22:52 PM by PSYCHO »

    Offline the Kook

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    Re: After Hours?
    « Reply #31 on: June 22, 2007, 04:28:22 PM »
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  • This has been coming for a while.
    But a simpler answer to her question would be the 6ft-10ft floatation device strapped to a surfer's foot.




    My point was theyre not ready, Its like asking someone who can barely count to 5 to understand quantum physics. Its waaay too premauture & way bad that this is a reality, it wasnt something coming, its called poking at a bees nest with out having a plan of escape. Thats why I said Investigate, talk with the local people about the local issues 1rst, they know, theyve heard it before. Build a fundation1rst with small surf issues. Why do you think relitively docile people Like Mario & SnS, got all wild & protective suddenly. Becuase they know & hate when outsiders conme in poking around with things they dont know. I feel like Im gona get sick. Swimmers? c'mon now?

    Ive never seen anyone of you rush home from work for the epic swimming conditions.  :'( Way ahead here. We're surfers, not elected officials. Start thinkin like a surfer.


    NO!!! Surfnstalk got all crazy because, well he's crazy.  Mario only stated that he wanted no more restrictions.  I want no more restrictions.  As a matter of fact what I want is fewer restrictions.  Stop with the negativity guy.  I said at the outset nothing about this would be easy.  NOTHING has been done yet and all week you have been Debbie Downer.  Lets get a plan and present it before we surrender.  And there have been many, many, many days that I have walked in the house, stripped off my clothes, put on baggies and hit the water for a swim.  Many of my neighbors have done the same.  It is only in the past couple of years that the letter of the law has been being enforced.
    "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

    No, I am not a smart ass.......I am a skilled, trained professional in pointing out the obvious and I speak fluent sarcasm.


    Offline little_nasty

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    Re: After Hours?
    « Reply #32 on: June 22, 2007, 04:32:01 PM »
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    The New Jersey Supreme Court recently rendered a decision on the issue of municipal liability for injuries sustained by swimmers and surfers during periods of high surf. The court's decision, which largely immunizes the government from damages, is a huge victory for access to town controlled beaches.
          The Supreme Court ruling held that ocean conditions, and not the City of Cape May or lifeguards on duty, were responsible for a surfer who broke his neck in storm-driven swells in 1993.
          Beach towns' have relied on a liability argument to justify restricting access during storm conditions. As many east coast surfers know, this is the best time to paddle out. With this ruling, municipalities will no longer be able to cite concern over lawsuits as a reason for closing beaches or restricting their use.
          In the 4-to-3 ruling, the Supreme Court reversed an appeals court decision and held that the surfer's accident was caused by the natural conditions of the ocean, a situation for which the town was not liable, and not by negligence on the part of the lifeguards.
          "It's in the best interest of the communities that they cannot be held responsible for the conditions of the ocean," Spring Lake Mayor Thomas J. Byrne III said about the decision.
          The court also held that the city couldn't be ordered to pay damages because a section of the Tort Claims Act says municipalities have immunity from liability for events on unimproved public property.
          The court distinguished a municipality's decision not to provide protective services at a beach from a municipality's liability for negligent performance of those services once undertaken.
          The appeals court decision, had it stuck, might have encouraged towns not to guard their beaches, because it in essence said if you provide lifeguards you are liable.
          This is a great victory for not only for surfers, swimmers and all recreational users of the Jersey coast,but also for the Jersey Shore Chapter of the Surfrider Foundation. Attorneys William McKinnon and Phil Mylod of Surfrider and other chapter leaders and members, along with Steve Foley and Brian Unger of SEA, have fought long and hard both on the judicial front (as amicus) and on the legislative front to eliminate liability as an excuse to bar surfers from storm surf.
          Assume the risk and know your limits and don't forget to thank the Jersey Shore Chapter this fall when the first hurricane surf hits.

    This is EXACTLY what i have been trying to say to some of you folks.  I know it is NJ, but there is all kinds of case law surrounding this.  I am not a lawyer and can't speak with confidence on our particular situation, but it is definitely something which will require real investigation.  I don't think that the legal liability aspect is the way many of you think it is.  Sometimes it can be a bit counter-intuitive.

    BUT, in the meantime, i thought we agreed not to talk to officials on our own until we had formulated a strategy and a plan of action?  We definitely don't want to stir up the hive until we are totally prepared and armed with information and alternatives based on sound legal opinion.  Otherwise, i fear that we will end up at the spot that psycho warns about.  Now is the time for asking questions - not giving information about our wishes or telling people what our as-yet-undetermined agenda will be.  One-Way information flow is what i suggest at this time.  Just information gathering until we can work more of this out.  And then, i think we can come together with an effective solution that will be palatable to the city officials and the community in general.
    « Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 04:34:34 PM by little_nasty »

    jscottk

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    Re: After Hours?
    « Reply #33 on: June 22, 2007, 04:33:00 PM »
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  • WE do have to be careful here, I know you guys all know that but..
    I dont want to see a surfrider red flag debacle...

    I totally agree with Da kook, And for the record I see what we are doing as more of just keeping an eye on things rather then trying to change what we have.

    Being at Community meetings, watching the Parkies to see that they dont get out of hand with tickets and stupid crap while not doing their real jobs, and making contacts with people so that when we do have to make a call its not a faceless phone call...

    Im fine with what we have right now, a surf area, new beaches being given over to surfing, and the parkies eating italian ice rather then ticketing jetty jumpers..
    « Last Edit: June 22, 2007, 04:38:53 PM by jscottk »

    Offline Crackie Onassis

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    Re: After Hours?
    « Reply #34 on: June 25, 2007, 03:29:09 PM »
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    Start thinkin like a surfer.

    Yeah, but then I'd have to start listening to Jack Johnson and Ben Harper records and predend that I like them. I'd have to incorporate the word chill into my vocabulary with earnest, and as anyone who knows me knows, this is not going to happen because I rarely chill. I'd have to start wearing beanies and start smoking pot, and I'm no good on pot and my head is too big for a beanie. Then there's the reggae, and there really hasn't been a good reggae record made since Bob Marley left Trojan records for Island fer chrissakes. I'd have to learn to talk without moving my lower jaw. . . Let's see, any other stereotypes that I've missed? In other words, pls don't tell me how to think.

    So heavy you can't even pick it up.

    elkisthebastard

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    Re: After Hours?
    « Reply #35 on: June 25, 2007, 04:07:22 PM »
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  • Hodges, if you want after hours swimming, why don't you and other swimmers approach it in a manner that in no way incorporates surfing issues.  That way we don't have to worry about further regulation and swimmers may be able to get what they want.  Bringing the parks dept a "look at them, why not us" type issue could end up being mutually disastrous.

    jscottk

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    Re: After Hours?
    « Reply #36 on: June 25, 2007, 04:25:14 PM »
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  • Im not fighting for swimming after 6, in fact that in my mind is a perfect example of poking at the hornets nest.  We all have had some great evening glass offs, and I would like to keep it that way...




    Offline pefa

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    Re: After Hours?
    « Reply #37 on: June 25, 2007, 05:16:27 PM »
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    The New Jersey Supreme Court recently rendered a decision on the issue of municipal liability for injuries sustained by swimmers and surfers during periods of high surf. The court's decision, which largely immunizes the government from damages, is a huge victory for access to town controlled beaches.
          The Supreme Court ruling held that ocean conditions, and not the City of Cape May or lifeguards on duty, were responsible for a surfer who broke his neck in storm-driven swells in 1993.
          Beach towns' have relied on a liability argument to justify restricting access during storm conditions. As many east coast surfers know, this is the best time to paddle out. With this ruling, municipalities will no longer be able to cite concern over lawsuits as a reason for closing beaches or restricting their use.
          In the 4-to-3 ruling, the Supreme Court reversed an appeals court decision and held that the surfer's accident was caused by the natural conditions of the ocean, a situation for which the town was not liable, and not by negligence on the part of the lifeguards.
          "It's in the best interest of the communities that they cannot be held responsible for the conditions of the ocean," Spring Lake Mayor Thomas J. Byrne III said about the decision.
          The court also held that the city couldn't be ordered to pay damages because a section of the Tort Claims Act says municipalities have immunity from liability for events on unimproved public property.
          The court distinguished a municipality's decision not to provide protective services at a beach from a municipality's liability for negligent performance of those services once undertaken.
          The appeals court decision, had it stuck, might have encouraged towns not to guard their beaches, because it in essence said if you provide lifeguards you are liable.
          This is a great victory for not only for surfers, swimmers and all recreational users of the Jersey coast,but also for the Jersey Shore Chapter of the Surfrider Foundation. Attorneys William McKinnon and Phil Mylod of Surfrider and other chapter leaders and members, along with Steve Foley and Brian Unger of SEA, have fought long and hard both on the judicial front (as amicus) and on the legislative front to eliminate liability as an excuse to bar surfers from storm surf.
          Assume the risk and know your limits and don't forget to thank the Jersey Shore Chapter this fall when the first hurricane surf hits.

    This is EXACTLY what i have been trying to say to some of you folks.  I know it is NJ, but there is all kinds of case law surrounding this.  I am not a lawyer and can't speak with confidence on our particular situation, but it is definitely something which will require real investigation.  I don't think that the legal liability aspect is the way many of you think it is.  Sometimes it can be a bit counter-intuitive.

    BUT, in the meantime, i thought we agreed not to talk to officials on our own until we had formulated a strategy and a plan of action?  We definitely don't want to stir up the hive until we are totally prepared and armed with information and alternatives based on sound legal opinion.  Otherwise, i fear that we will end up at the spot that psycho warns about.  Now is the time for asking questions - not giving information about our wishes or telling people what our as-yet-undetermined agenda will be.  One-Way information flow is what i suggest at this time.  Just information gathering until we can work more of this out.  And then, i think we can come together with an effective solution that will be palatable to the city officials and the community in general.

    .......and what jscott just said......

    hells yeah......
    i didn't mean to open a hornets nest by initiating this whole thing only to bolw up in everyones faces because of a few overzelous loudmouths. couldn't have said it better myself ln ;)

    we all have two ears and one mouth....use them in proportion......

    i think we need to better define what EXACTLY we want to DO and what structure to we want to apply to it... ie commity, leader, board, open, etc.....
    i personally think we need to establish some structure, definition, and PLAN with a designated leader things can funnel through and a group of LT's, for lack of a better word, to spearhead and mobilize.......



    oh, and btw hodges, i'm deeply offended by the surfer/ pot smoking stereotype. what are we a bunch of spicolis ???.......{bubbling water sound}......... cough, cough, cough   .....wait, what was i saying, i forgot.....cough ;D
    yaa brobrahhhh
    « Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 05:36:09 PM by pefa »
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    Offline Crackie Onassis

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    Re: After Hours?
    « Reply #38 on: June 25, 2007, 05:35:26 PM »
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  • Hodges, if you want after hours swimming, why don't you and other swimmers approach it in a manner that in no way incorporates surfing issues.  That way we don't have to worry about further regulation and swimmers may be able to get what they want.  Bringing the parks dept a "look at them, why not us" type issue could end up being mutually disastrous.

    Forget it.

    Forget it all.

    I just wanna get through the summer.


    PS: Pefa,  I am the guy in that Anti Grass filmstrip that they showed you in Middle School, you know the one who was a true fine citizen but turns into Public Enemy #1 at the first grass-taking.

    If I didn't turn into a complete zombie with the slightest toke, I'd be on the grass-trip tomorrow!

    PSS: Psycho, hope I didn't offend, but those blanket "We are surfers" statements will send me running for the hills. It's just the way I'm wired.
    « Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 05:42:47 PM by The Hodges »
    So heavy you can't even pick it up.

    Offline pefa

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    Re: After Hours?
    « Reply #39 on: June 25, 2007, 05:44:46 PM »
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  • everyone, please:

    don't give up, just shut up......

    just kidding......

    seriously, we need to back off a bit, say/do nothing outward until ready, stay positive, and figure out exactly what to do or not to do, all while we keep moving forward..... NOT SHOOTING OURSELVES IN THE FOOT

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    Offline little_nasty

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    Re: After Hours?
    « Reply #40 on: June 25, 2007, 10:44:44 PM »
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  • Hodges, if you want after hours swimming, why don't you and other swimmers approach it in a manner that in no way incorporates surfing issues.  That way we don't have to worry about further regulation and swimmers may be able to get what they want.

    In fact, this may be the most appropriate course of action.  We'll really have to think about this a bit more.  I have reached out to some folks about guidance on how to formulate a strategy and put together some structure which it seems to me that we really really need.  When is the next meeting on this?

    I am thinking maybe we could have someone (a professional) come and speak to us or counsel us on how to organize and structure ourselves and design an appropriate path to proceed (or not).

    And ps. personally, i am not at all motivated out of fear.  Not one bit.  No city official is going to stop me from accessing the ocean.  I will take it to the supreme court and by any means necessary.  It is my civic, human, and cultural right, and i will not be intimidated and cower in fear because i think they might take away what they rightfully cannot.  That being said, i of course won't take any actions that my eff things up for everyone else or without consultation.  I'm just saiying.  I ain't scurred!

    Offline Crackie Onassis

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    Re: After Hours?
    « Reply #41 on: June 26, 2007, 09:23:33 AM »
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  • Nasty,

    I think that most people on our board have little to no experience of how other places work. Most have learned to surf in NYC, and that's all they know.

    I find this whole "take what they give us" mentality a bit frustrating because what isn't being taken into consideration is that they aren't "giving" anything, they are denying everyone (swimmers-surfers-submariner racers) access.
    So heavy you can't even pick it up.

    Offline pefa

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    Re: After Hours?
    « Reply #42 on: June 26, 2007, 09:42:21 AM »
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  • And ps. personally, i am not at all motivated out of fear.  Not one bit.  No city official is going to stop me from accessing the ocean.  I will take it to the supreme court and by any means necessary.  It is my civic, human, and cultural right, and i will not be intimidated and cower in fear because i think they might take away what they rightfully cannot.  That being said, i of course won't take any actions that my eff things up for everyone else or without consultation.  I'm just saiying.  I ain't scurred!






    giddyup my brother.......
    i'm w/ you 100000%. no where has fear been mentioned as any guiding factor, however, i have been adament, and reduntant now that its over a week and 10 pages later, about being tightlipped, strategic, and better organized. as far as bringing in a professional.... ithink its a waist of time.
    there's enough exepience dealing w/ the city here (i run my own business & do a shiit load of business w/ the city w/ multiple municipal contracts, for example, as do a few others) that i feel we need to put our energy into solidifieng the first steps that STILL havn't been done.

    im starting to feel as if i don't have a voice because i've said all this from days ago and it gets rpeated over and over by different people and w/ different words.

    we should MEET again organize some definable structure, more specified mission, and course of action.

    ENOUGH TALK AND TREADS.......TIME TO DO brown trout RIGHT
    THIS IS GETTING REDICULOUS AND IM FEELING LIKE IM BACK IN HIGH SCHOOL
    EITHER WE CAN ALL LIKE TO HEAR OURSELVES TALK, LIKE TO WRITE AND READ WHAT WE WRITE AND WAIST PRECIOUS TIME I DON'T HAVE PUTZING AROUND ON HERE TALKING IN MORE CIRCLES.......
    OR FINALLY DO.
    RIGHT NOW I PERSONALLY DON'T CARE ANYMORE HOW IM PERCIEVED OR IF I LOOK LIKE A CONTROL FREAK, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO TAKE SOME SORT OF LEADERSHIP ROLE IN THIS FOR THE GOOD OF THE OUTCOME, A NEED TO STAY FOCUSED ON WHAT I INITIATED, AND TO KEEP MOVING FORWARD IN A POSITVE, BENEFICIAL WAY.  I THINK THIS ISSUE IS GETTING OUT OF CONTROL AND SPINNING IN CIRCLES. WE ARE NOW AT A CRITICAL POINT, WHERE I BELIVE IT IS MOST IMPORTANT TO DO brown trout RIGHT.
    I NEVER POSTED THE FIRST THREAD ABOUT THIS WITH ANY INTENTION OF IT BEING ANY TYPE OF "TAKE WHAT WE CAN GET" ADDITUDE, AND THE THEME I'VE USED FROM THE GET GO IS COMMUNITY, WHICH MEANS A TWO WAY STREET- SYBIOSIS.

    HODGES I AGREE WITH YOU, AND THATS WHY IM SAYIN WHAT IM SAYING, AS NOT TO SOUND LIKE LIKE A SNOB, BUT I HAVE AS GOOD AN IDEA AS ANYONE AS HOW THINGS WORK HERE, OR ANYWHERE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER.
    ANY THOUGHTS???

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    Offline Crackie Onassis

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    Re: After Hours?
    « Reply #43 on: June 26, 2007, 10:17:35 AM »
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  • Sorry that came off as hoity, don't mean any disrespect to anyone.

    All I'm trying to say is that there is a better way and that the way that is in place is not in line with pretty much any other place on the East Coast.
    So heavy you can't even pick it up.

    Offline little_nasty

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    Re: After Hours?
    « Reply #44 on: June 26, 2007, 10:33:58 AM »
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  • I hear both of yas.  I'll post up a bit more of what i meant in terms of structure and organization.  I just think we need another meeting even if it's just an organizational one, unless y'all want to flesh a bunch of stuff out on here.  I dunno.  I'll post some more of what i meant later.


    hodges, i don't think hoity toity is really anyone's personification of you; the kernal that really resonated with me is this:

    they aren't "giving" anything, they are denying everyone (swimmers-surfers-submariner racers) access.

    A-the eff-MEN...  That more clearly states what i was trying to convey.