Author Topic: NY Assembly overwhelmingly passess moratorium on Fracking  (Read 4041 times)

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Offline CJsurf

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Re: NY Assembly overwhelmingly passess moratorium on Fracking
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2014, 04:45:09 PM »
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  • Those "Little Wells" as you call them and thousands just like them all over the Marcellas shale formation are exactly what the whole fracking thing is about.

    Think it through logically.  Take the emotion and exaggerated threats out of it for a bit.  Once these wells are in place they produce astounding amounts of clean burning natural gas for very little cost.  Do you deny the need for energy?  Are we to live in tents without heat, airconditioning or electricity?  All that energy has to come from somewhere.  Where is the cleaner alternative?  It doesn't exist in any viable manner. 

    My family's property is smack dab in the middle of the richest stripe on this map right where PA and WV come together.  There are wells all over the place.  Three on our property alone and countless on surrounding properties.  Instances of problems are few and far between.  Forget Youtube.  Get in your car.  Take the 8 or 9 hour drive and talk to the people at the heart of this.  Too much BS on the web that has one crazy agenda or another driving it.  As for the poverty in the area, keep in mind not all land owners sold off their rights like the prior owners of ours did generations ago.  There are dirt poor people becoming very wealthy on gas that is beneath land that's been in their families for generations.

    Think about this......the 3 wells on our property are sitting on about 2,460,000,000+ Cubic feet of natural gas all for disturbing the ground for about a year and leaving a 4-foot by 4-foot footprint.  How else are you going to have that little impact and provide that much low cost energy???  If you really think about it it is absolutely amazing........that also explains why the petro industry and the anti-capitalists are going after it so hard.  Don't be their useful idiots.




    Offline OldSoul

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    Re: NY Assembly overwhelmingly passess moratorium on Fracking
    « Reply #16 on: June 19, 2014, 09:01:02 PM »
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  • Cleaner energy is becoming more available. We have wind, solar and hydro. Electric vehicles are finally making head way (anyone remember the EV1 ? thats a whole other issue lol). The government buildings are all putting up solar panels now. We need to work with the Earth instead of against it.

    I do not deny the need for energy, but I do deny the need to fu(k up the planet more as a cost to get it. We consume too much in this country as it is. Stop putting up Christmas lights. Shut the t.v off when your leave the room. Open your windows when it is nice outside. Walk when you can, ride a bicycle, carpool.. you see what Im getting at? This populus has gotten stupid and lazy. Natural gas is a band-aid on the real problem of over consumption.

    I know oil rigs mess up too, I see the damage they cause.. it's disturbing. You think when thousands of more gas wells get drilled and trillions of gallons of fluid are pumped to break up the rock not one is going to fail and compromise the beautiful land people like yourself enjoy/make a living off of?  At least with oil we get to make by-products such as plastics and what-not..things that have some use. What are we going to do with toxic fluid...

    The people selling out are getting money man... they are leaving. What the actual fu(k !! Then the poor guys who try to hold stead fast and not sell out get burned.  The ground gets disturbed more than once when they come back to pump again. The 4X4 foot print is not the deal breaker, it is what goes on to get it there and what goes on underneath it.

    "Anti-capitalist"... I guess I am a bit of that. Defined by wikipedia "capitalism is an economic system in which trade, industry, and the means of production are controlled by private owners with the goal of making profits."

    These guys do not have our best interest or the planets, they just want to make money and live somewhere else where all this doesn't effect their lifestyle.
     
    Which makes me think of this quote, "If you think the economy is more important than the environment, try holding your breath while counting your money."

    now....where are the waves!?!?

    Offline CJsurf

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    Re: NY Assembly overwhelmingly passess moratorium on Fracking
    « Reply #17 on: June 19, 2014, 09:30:26 PM »
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  •  :( :o :o 8)

    Offline Looseness

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    Re: NY Assembly overwhelmingly passess moratorium on Fracking
    « Reply #18 on: June 20, 2014, 08:47:16 AM »
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  • As far as capitalism goes, I'm not anti. My concern is health/safety, BUT if you believe that increased fracking in the the Marcellus Shale in any US state will lower your gas prices, you should know that the pipeline being run through Rockaway is setup to run OUT towards shipment overseas sales where prices are higher. That's capitalism, sell to the highest bidder. It's not about helping your country, but serving the owner/investors. So basically our gas prices will continue to rise no matter what. The profits will not be passed on the the US or regional customers as lower bills. This information can be found online too. CJsurf I do appreciate your taking the time to post your information and arguments. I gotta get to work right now and don't have time to track down many links about overseas sales of US drilled/fracked gas but there is a mention of it in this article.  http://gothamist.com/2014/06/19/rockaway_beach_gas_pipeline.php

    I guess we should invest in gas companies.  ::) :o
    « Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 08:51:03 AM by Looseness »
    It's no better to be safe than sorry....

    Offline seb

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    Re: NY Assembly overwhelmingly passess moratorium on Fracking
    « Reply #19 on: June 20, 2014, 11:55:16 AM »
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  • ...
    « Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 12:42:56 PM by seb »
    it's 6AM, have you seen a donkey?

    Offline Looseness

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    Re: NY Assembly overwhelmingly passess moratorium on Fracking
    « Reply #20 on: June 20, 2014, 12:51:31 PM »
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  • Where I do agree with CJsurf is on the likelihood that the gas corporations will use the blocking of fracking as an excuse to raise gas prices in the US, just as oil companies and other businesses inflate prices due to doctored supply/demand statistics. I think there's a difference between being against unscrupulous business practices and being anti-capitalist.
    It's no better to be safe than sorry....

    Offline CJsurf

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    Re: NY Assembly overwhelmingly passess moratorium on Fracking
    « Reply #21 on: June 20, 2014, 08:36:43 PM »
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  • So the natural gas we are extracting isn't toxic but the fluids used to extract it are.  Think about that one. 
    Where do the supposed toxic fracking chemicals originate?


    Any idea how deep a gas well is?
    Any idea how far below the surface the actual fracking takes place?
    Any idea how deep a water well is?

    Offline seb

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    it's 6AM, have you seen a donkey?

    Offline CJsurf

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    Re: NY Assembly overwhelmingly passess moratorium on Fracking
    « Reply #23 on: June 20, 2014, 08:44:07 PM »
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  • Offline CJsurf

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    Re: NY Assembly overwhelmingly passess moratorium on Fracking
    « Reply #24 on: June 20, 2014, 08:58:35 PM »
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  • Simple question:  Do you think the anti-fracking lobby ever exaggerates its claims of the risks? 

    Offline seb

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    Re: NY Assembly overwhelmingly passess moratorium on Fracking
    « Reply #25 on: June 20, 2014, 09:31:02 PM »
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  • If it were that simple, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But I get that it eases your mind to think that it is, you'd be feeling pretty shitty otherwise.
    it's 6AM, have you seen a donkey?

    Offline Kyle

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    NY Assembly overwhelmingly passess moratorium on Fracking
    « Reply #26 on: June 20, 2014, 10:33:12 PM »
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  •  .     .      .
    « Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 06:47:35 AM by Kyle »

    Offline Looseness

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    Re: NY Assembly overwhelmingly passess moratorium on Fracking
    « Reply #27 on: June 21, 2014, 02:03:59 AM »
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  • This chart left out quite a number of chemicals that are commonly used in fracking fluid.
    http://fracfocus.org/chemical-use/what-chemicals-are-used
    Do I have to list the origin of all the possible components of fracking fluid or just the ones at actually are toxic?

    Water wells can be different depths/types, deep wells, shallow wells, artesian wells.
    Rain water as well as will always flow down until it hits an impermeable surface. If a gas well is not properly sealed, fracking fluid could potentially be released into an aquifer. This "recovery of the fracking fluid" I find questionable. But hey, I'm just going on a dumb kind of logic that says you pump a mixture of sand water and chemicals into a hole in the ground, it's seems unlikely that you'll get it all back out.

    Simple question:  Do you think the anti-fracking lobby ever exaggerates its claims of the risks? 
    That is entirely possible.
    Do you think the Pro Fracking lobby or their website could possibly be minimizing the risks and understating the numbers {.5% chemical additives} at all? I read a fair bit of the Energy from Shale website and it makes a pretty strong case for the safety of the practice, but this is coming from people protecting their interests {who listed only the most innocuous of chemicals used in fracking} so it's like safety studies funded by the drug company that stands to profit from approval.

    On one side you have people who stand to profit in one way or another + people who believe the risk is worth the benefit. On the other you have people concerned about health and safety. Now I realize that many of the organizations listed as supporters of the Energy from Shale website for instance, aren't all gas companies, but business and even unions that will get work from this. So it's not any easy issue to deny work and business to steel workers, equipment companies and such.
    Another issue as I see it is, one company doing the drilling and well construction might be conscientious and professional, another could be sloppy and unprofessional. Does the industry properly monitor and regulate? Forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical after things like the Deepwater BP thing in the Gulf.


     
    It's no better to be safe than sorry....

    Offline damian

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    Re: NY Assembly overwhelmingly passess moratorium on Fracking
    « Reply #28 on: June 21, 2014, 07:24:17 AM »
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  • Another good example of a need for skepticism.  New Yorker article on the Elk River chemical spill:


    http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2014/04/07/140407fa_fact_osnos?currentPage=all


    Couple of notable quotes (Koch brothers of course):


    The Kochs also helped fund research at the Public Policy Foundation of West Virginia, a think tank that, in 2007, published “Unleashing Capitalism: Why Prosperity Stops at the West Virginia Border and How to Fix It,” edited by a West Virginia University economics professor named Russell Sobel. The book argued against mine-safety regulations, on the ground that “improved safety conditions result in lower money wages for workers,” and asked, “Are workers really better off being safer but making less income?” It also called for relaxing rules on water usage. “Although they are intended to benefit citizens, water use regulations will only hamper prosperity by impeding the state’s ability to retain and attract businesses and to generate new employment opportunities.”




    [/size]And:




    [/size] “The 1974 Safe Drinking Water Act allows every resident of the United States to have access to safe drinking water. So how do we say that, for three hundred thousand people in this part of West Virginia, it’s O.K. to have ‘appropriate’ water? Do we understand the path we’re taking here, by defining two different classes of water, for two different groups of population? Do we really want to go down that path? In the history of this nation, it doesn’t end well when we go down this path.”

    Offline handy

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    Re: NY Assembly overwhelmingly passess moratorium on Fracking
    « Reply #29 on: June 21, 2014, 08:11:19 AM »
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  • There's a problem with using percentages to represent the volumetric ratio of compounds present in fracking fluids. I've read that on average, a well requires between 3 and 5 million gallons of water, or 4 million gallons on average. That clever poster indicates that a only half a percent of fracking fluids contain additive which are clearly safe for people, like solvents and salt compounds. Looking at this in absolute numbers rather than relative terms: 20,000 gallons of chemicals pumped into the ground on average for each well. I can't get behind that. As if water itself isn't a precious resource... 4 million gallons. what a waste. Multiply that by all the wells drilled to date.

    Just because a chemical compound is found in household goods, does not mean it's safe or environmentally friendly. Then of course there's the risk that the industry is not being honest about all the compounds contained in the fluid.

    The statement about natural gas not being toxic? I guess asphyxiation is safe for people now too.

    Lastly, that gas is for export, which is exactly the reason some people want to put an LNG transfer station off the coast.

    Out of curiosity, exactly how much money does a well owner make off a well during the first year and subsequent years?