Author Topic: Interesting vid on NJ.com: Did engineering or ecology protect better from Sandy? (click for link)  (Read 1863 times)

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Offline SeaCliff

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In the wake of Sandy and with billions of dollars being thrown around in the rebuilding effort, this vid raises some interesting points and questions, and uses historical evidence to back things up. Def worth the 5 minutes. The summary is below, but click the link, then click on the video to view:


http://www.nj.com/ledgerlive/index.ssf/2013/02/ledger_live_video_rebuilding_n.html


***********


By Brian Donohue


In the wake of Hurricane Sandy, New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie has repeatedly pointed out that the areas along the shore that sustained the least damage were the ones that had "engineered beaches." That phrase conjures up images of sand-pumping barges, men in hard hats and bulldozers plowing sand across the beach.
What most people don't realize is that the New Jersey beach that bore the brunt of Sandy best has never seen a bulldozer. This place - Midway Beach in South Seaside Park - was saved by a bunch of folks with cheap sand fencing and forefathers who were smart enough not to build too close to the ocean in the first place. In the end, their efforts to prevent catastrophe trumped the engineers' work hands down. Watch the video and let us know what you think.
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Offline ArchySwashbuckle

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Informative vid and further truth into the Seagrass / dune rebar theory. I noticed Gilgo faired much better than a lot of other beaches with it's high dunes and natural vegetaion.
"Waves are the ultimate illusion. They come out of nowhere, instantaneously materialize and just as quickly they break and vanish. Chasing after such fleeting mirages is a complete waste of time. That is what I chose to do with my life." Dora

Offline surfplusart

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Really interesting. Thanks for posting, Seacliff.
Darian would go

Offline ankleslapper

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Love the philosophy in the vid -- but because there's always more to the story, I'd be curious to hear what other factors may have contributed -- what beaches naturally 'get' sand in storms...which beaches lose them, etc.  I'm all for dunes/planting.  I love when people say 'but the storm washed the dune away.'  Doesn't that mean it did its job & saved your house? (that was my impression of how they work...then they need to be rebuilt/replanted a bit)  The other problem with where I live: they want every bit of beachfront paved as a playground & then holler about protection.  My understanding is you really can't have both -- you might have to give something up.
the A is a small price to pay

Offline surfplusart

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Love the philosophy in the vid -- but because there's always more to the story, I'd be curious to hear what other factors may have contributed -- what beaches naturally 'get' sand in storms...which beaches lose them, etc.  I'm all for dunes/planting.  I love when people say 'but the storm washed the dune away.'  Doesn't that mean it did its job & saved your house? (that was my impression of how they work...then they need to be rebuilt/replanted a bit)  The other problem with where I live: they want every bit of beachfront paved as a playground & then holler about protection.  My understanding is you really can't have both -- you might have to give something up.
What I'm hearing is that you need space for dunes. I think in the video, they said they chose to build farther away from the shoreline. I am impressed that it seems to be a community effort to build/maintain the dunes - so obviously they are in agreement about their protective value and importance (also mentioned in the video about Bradley Beach and from Shacky/Northstreet, about Florida beaches). Also, the dunes are gigantic, and built higher than the condos. Yes, the video says the storm took 30ft of their dunes, but they are rebuilding them. I think dunes could be (part of) the solution for areas of Rock that have space, but the most developed areas do not appear to have space (86 to 108), so some (Chopchaser) have brought up the idea of using one lane of Shorefront Parkway for dunes. Chopchaser is the expert on this. The NYTimes (Feb7) wrote that Xmas trees have been stored at Randall's island for the purpose of creating dunes, so I'm curious about plans.
Darian would go

Offline ankleslapper

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so ready to give up half or most of shorefront, but that's just me!  the homes lining it could have beach front (protected) access -- minus a dangerous, 4-lane-highway-to-nowhere.  yeah, the traffic patterns would need some refiguring, but that almost seems easy.
the A is a small price to pay

Offline surfplusart

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so ready to give up half or most of shorefront, but that's just me!  the homes lining it could have beach front (protected) access -- minus a dangerous, 4-lane-highway-to-nowhere.  yeah, the traffic patterns would need some refiguring, but that almost seems easy.
I agree, it doesn't seem like a hard thing to do... Do the homeowners 86 to 108 want it? I would hope so, after the devastation. So I'm guessing the dunes would be parks/community jurisdiction and shorefront parkway is city jurisdiction? Now, in my opinion, seems to be the time for these ideas to come forward and be introduced to the community, since as Northstreet told us, we are getting a HUGE amount of sand (30 million cubic yards), and the next phase is protective measures, whether that be groins(jetties), barriers, dunes, valves/locks for bayside, or some combination, with dialogue among USACE (ACOE), parks, city, and the community.
Darian would go

Offline olewalrus

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Boro of Avalon down in south jersey.......governing body back in 70's aggressively were after building dunes......result....no ocean water in streets , no sand either.   Some flooding from bay side, but, no real damage........dune systems work........in Avalon you can see the difference, north end is engeered plus dunes, center and south end dunes only.......dredge came last month to FIX the north end....eeeeech!

Offline seb

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So dunes, no boardwalk?  Don't think there is room for both...
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Offline jerseysurfer

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I moved out of the City to the jersey shore in 92, and I remember the "beach" in sea bright prior to the sand replenshiment. Hardley any beach at the main lot down to Donivon's reef bar. Some beach at the free beach (just north of the rumson bridge, and then some beach up to the last beach club. Fishing and surfing were great with the jetties sticking way into the ocean. North of the beach clubs up to Sandy Hook, the ocean rolled up against the sea wall, may be at low tide there was some sand, but not much. Monmouth beach, where in the video the bulldozers are, was not any better, ocean up against sea wall down to Big Monmouth beach club, which had a decent beach, no beach in front of the two towers and then again some beach at little monmouth. Long branch 7 president park was in better shape but still had only 20-25 percent of beach it does now. They (the Army C of E) did the beach replenshiment in 95 and killed the fishing, surfing and made even have a after work swim no fun. You take two steps into the water and would be up to your head, it was like walking off a cliff. Anyway in the past 13 or so years I have witnessed that sand, get washed away and then replaced about 3 possibly 4 times already. Sometimes the sand stays for a few years, slowly being eaten away and sometimes its gone with one huge storm. Sandy was unusally in that storms take away the sand but the buildings remain, this time everything was taken away. So if this is an engineered beach, Ill take the Christmas trees. There is no reason now that that process can not start, yea some views would be lost, some beach would be not able to be used to play on, but it beats pumping sand every winter. Unless your the sand pump guy.

Offline ankleslapper

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Boro of Avalon down in south jersey.......governing body back in 70's aggressively were after building dunes......result....no ocean water in streets , no sand either.   Some flooding from bay side, but, no real damage........dune systems work........in Avalon you can see the difference, north end is engeered plus dunes, center and south end dunes only.......dredge came last month to FIX the north end....eeeeech!
my family will be staying in Avalon this summer (after 37+yrs renting on LBI, where my husband was born & raised -- we'll be on LBI plenty, but switched up the family vacation for this year -- whole host of reasons).  visited Avalon/Stone Harbor a few wks ago...and was impressed by the dunes.  A bit of a walk to beach in some spots, but how great -- it's almost like going through a nature sanctuary before it opens up onto the sand.  Was so cool (and obviously, effective -- though the beach we visited is VERY wide compared to what I've always known - my current home in Rockaway & go-to family spots on LBI - another factor in how spots fared).
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Offline jscottk

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Crazy Idea, but it could work


Take the current concrete stands that held up the board walk
attach metal or wood beams to the front and back of them instead of the top
fill with sand and xmas trees
start growing some pine tree shrubbery on it


........A dune 15 feet high, with inner support.


Now take a lane from Ocean parkway and make it a walk way bike path.


No you dont get a boardwalk, its gone, you get a dune to walk over which will eventually have paths up to it and over it.
You do get a nice bike path with concession stands and the beginning of a ocean front business pathway.

..Whore it to death then sell the corpse on Craigslist... (used to be Ebay but eff Ebay and Paypal)

Offline HydroGlide

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its a matter of elevation now - the Dutch are starting to give up against trying to hold back rising sea levels - which says alot - raise the houses and make dunes but be ready for whatever is built on the lower elevations to be flooded in the future.  the NYT is sometimes a good read (them comparing Lebron to Barry Gibb today in the "Sports" section was not a good read,  just  pathetic)


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/arts/design/flood-control-in-the-netherlands-now-allows-sea-water-in.html?pagewanted=all
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 01:28:28 PM by HydroGlide »

Offline the Kook

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Crazy Idea, but it could work


Take the current concrete stands that held up the board walk
attach metal or wood beams to the front and back of them instead of the top
fill with sand and xmas trees
start growing some pine tree shrubbery on it


........A dune 15 feet high, with inner support.


Now take a lane from Ocean parkway and make it a walk way bike path.


No you dont get a boardwalk, its gone, you get a dune to walk over which will eventually have paths up to it and over it.
You do get a nice bike path with concession stands and the beginning of a ocean front business pathway.



Reinforced dunes is one of the options that the ACOE is looking at for the long term, according to that Falt guy that spoke at the Community Board meeting the other night.  The reinforcement could be sheet piling or concrete walls or one of several other options.
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Offline surfplusart

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So dunes, no boardwalk?  Don't think there is room for both...
That's what it looks like, as far as ~86 to 108 is concerned, but if part of shorefront parkway were converted to dunes, we could have both...
Darian would go