Author Topic: Muslim Center Lower Manhattan  (Read 2131 times)

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Offline HydroGlide

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Re: Muslim Center Lower Manhattan
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2010, 04:58:17 PM »
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  • If I had been born in a slum in Pakistan into a Islamic extreme male dominated family who knows what I would have become.
    maybe an alternative version of Cornershop?


    Cornershop - Brimful of Asha



    its the weekend

    Online Harry Balzsac

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    Re: Muslim Center Lower Manhattan
    « Reply #31 on: August 13, 2010, 05:04:25 PM »
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  • Haha.  Nice.  They're playing Irving Plaza in November.  They're new-ish record "Judy Sucks a Lemon for Breakfast" is super-duper groovy.  I plan to go in November and throw bottles at them in protest of their appearance so close to Ground Zero. 

    Offline kumachan

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    Re: Muslim Center Lower Manhattan
    « Reply #32 on: August 13, 2010, 08:22:21 PM »
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  • Great discussion!  Unfortunately, my post is verrry long,  Apologies if I rant on too much.


    When I first learned about the proposed mosque, my initial reaction came from the heart: "F@*k no! Would we allow Sony or Mitsui to build an office building that towered over the U.S.S. Arizona?! No way, screw that mosque!"  My brain did, in fact, engage a few minutes later and I realized I was comparing apples to oranges, again. I forgot that the U.S.S. Arizona is a national monument, in a national park and there's no way anyone is building over that site.  That's not the situation in lower Manhattan.  An Imam has chosen to build an Islamic Center on privately owned property, ordinarily free to be sold, unhindered by government interference, to whomever meets the seller's price, to do with as he pleases, so long as it it legal.  Yes, it is exceptionally distasteful that the Imam has chosen to build the Islamic Center two blocks away from ground zero, but, there is no law that prevents the Imam from purchasing the property and using it for a legally sanctioned purpose.  As much as I might disagree, an Islamic Cultural Center is a legal purpose.  Are the opponents of the mosque asking to make Islamic culture, or Islam, illegal? 


    See, though I am old and cynical, I still believe that the U.S. is a nation based upon the rule of law. I might not like some of the laws enacted, but I believe our nation is based on the rule of secular, democratically enacted  law.  I believe, that the minute this nation moves away from the rule of law, and makes decisions based upon emotion, or what "we know to be wrong" or because popular opinion believes that something is "immoral", we move away from what the U.S. is supposed to represent, and move somewhat a little closer to the thinking of the zealot.  If our government, whether City, State or Federal, took some action to stop the mosque from being built, without legal precedent or absent an enacted law, I believe that we lose, our nation loses, and the Islamic fundamentalist yahoos score a huge victory.  If the U.S. does that, then it was the zealot who caused that change to occur, the zealot won. The way I see it, if we allow, or ask, our government to act outside of the rule of law and prevent "Islamic activity" in the U.S., we demonstrate to the world that we are a weak nation, that we do not trust the reasoned foundations of our nation and that in moments of crisis or fear, we will stop trusting our rule of law, our Constitution and will allow our government to resort to illegal acts, just to make us feel good.  That thinking and action led to the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII.  I had hoped that we, as a nation, recognized that mistake and would not repeat it.


    I am just as angered by the Imam's decision as are other people who are arguing against the building of the mosque.  I was standing on the corner of Ann & B'way the morning of 9/11/01, I watched with my own eyes as people fell/jumped from the north tower, I heard the second plane gun its engines the moment before ramming the south tower and my body shuddered from the impact/explosion, I watched both Towers collapse while standing on the Brooklyn Bridge.  Weeks later I learned that three guys I grew up with and five colleagues died in the Towers that day.  I don't want a mosque build there, but I do not want my government to resort to taking some illegal act to prevent it from being built.  I do not want my fellow countrymen acting irrationally, out of fear and/or anger.  We, as a nation, should be bigger than religious zealots who fancy themselves enemies of the U.S.  It is our obligation to inform them that they won nothing; that we do not fear them; that we are stronger than they are; that our nation and our way of life continues and thrives!  They need to know that, after all is said and done, they do not matter.  The mosque should be taken in stride, just another day in NYC.


    Bash away...
    « Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 08:32:58 PM by kumachan »

    Offline nycfunkart

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    Re: Muslim Center Lower Manhattan
    « Reply #33 on: August 13, 2010, 09:18:25 PM »
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  • I believe their decision to build the mosque in their minds is a political win win for them, and if you don't think this is political your plain stupid ----- their thinking is, if it get built great, if not they show the muslim world, look they hate our religion, look they stopped us from building our peaceful place of worship. WHY AT GROUND ZERO WHY ???? and it's not a few blocks it's a couple of hundred feet AWAY. Take it somewhere else ------- where do you think the first attack was planned on WTC? IN A MOSQUE IN JERSEY. I admit because I'm a fireman and lost many many friends I might be bias but in my mind the enemy is hiding behind the muslim religion and is looking to use the mosque to teach hate against us and in their mind the ultimate goal is to have no other religion but theirs!!!! ------- I would like to know where the money is coming from, just too many unanswered questions. For all the libs writing their opinion on here fine we need will always need open debate but just be aware that the enemy uses people like you to further their agenda and their agenda is to wipe us out. ------ taken in stride?     

    Online The Lone Surfer

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    Re: Muslim Center Lower Manhattan
    « Reply #34 on: August 13, 2010, 09:47:34 PM »
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  • Great discussion!  Unfortunately, my post is verrry long,  Apologies if I rant on too much.


    When I first learned about the proposed mosque, my initial reaction came from the heart: "F@*k no! Would we allow Sony or Mitsui to build an office building that towered over the U.S.S. Arizona?! No way, screw that mosque!"  My brain did, in fact, engage a few minutes later and I realized I was comparing apples to oranges, again. I forgot that the U.S.S. Arizona is a national monument, in a national park and there's no way anyone is building over that site.  That's not the situation in lower Manhattan.  An Imam has chosen to build an Islamic Center on privately owned property, ordinarily free to be sold, unhindered by government interference, to whomever meets the seller's price, to do with as he pleases, so long as it it legal.  Yes, it is exceptionally distasteful that the Imam has chosen to build the Islamic Center two blocks away from ground zero, but, there is no law that prevents the Imam from purchasing the property and using it for a legally sanctioned purpose.  As much as I might disagree, an Islamic Cultural Center is a legal purpose.  Are the opponents of the mosque asking to make Islamic culture, or Islam, illegal? 


    See, though I am old and cynical, I still believe that the U.S. is a nation based upon the rule of law. I might not like some of the laws enacted, but I believe our nation is based on the rule of secular, democratically enacted  law.  I believe, that the minute this nation moves away from the rule of law, and makes decisions based upon emotion, or what "we know to be wrong" or because popular opinion believes that something is "immoral", we move away from what the U.S. is supposed to represent, and move somewhat a little closer to the thinking of the zealot.  If our government, whether City, State or Federal, took some action to stop the mosque from being built, without legal precedent or absent an enacted law, I believe that we lose, our nation loses, and the Islamic fundamentalist yahoos score a huge victory.  If the U.S. does that, then it was the zealot who caused that change to occur, the zealot won. The way I see it, if we allow, or ask, our government to act outside of the rule of law and prevent "Islamic activity" in the U.S., we demonstrate to the world that we are a weak nation, that we do not trust the reasoned foundations of our nation and that in moments of crisis or fear, we will stop trusting our rule of law, our Constitution and will allow our government to resort to illegal acts, just to make us feel good.  That thinking and action led to the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII.  I had hoped that we, as a nation, recognized that mistake and would not repeat it.


    I am just as angered by the Imam's decision as are other people who are arguing against the building of the mosque.  I was standing on the corner of Ann & B'way the morning of 9/11/01, I watched with my own eyes as people fell/jumped from the north tower, I heard the second plane gun its engines the moment before ramming the south tower and my body shuddered from the impact/explosion, I watched both Towers collapse while standing on the Brooklyn Bridge.  Weeks later I learned that three guys I grew up with and five colleagues died in the Towers that day.  I don't want a mosque build there, but I do not want my government to resort to taking some illegal act to prevent it from being built.  I do not want my fellow countrymen acting irrationally, out of fear and/or anger.  We, as a nation, should be bigger than religious zealots who fancy themselves enemies of the U.S.  It is our obligation to inform them that they won nothing; that we do not fear them; that we are stronger than they are; that our nation and our way of life continues and thrives!  They need to know that, after all is said and done, they do not matter.  The mosque should be taken in stride, just another day in NYC.


    Bash away...

    thanks for your post. It come across as reasoned and from the heart.

    I tend to agree with jscott about religion, but the problem with denying one religious structure over others is that it is actually doing the opposite of condemning religion. It is saying that our religion is better than theirs, when the fact is that every religion has been used to do even more atrocious things than 9/11. There was a time when learning and truth cowered under the rule of Christian law and Europe regressed for hundreds of years while some Islamic cultures carried the torch of knowledge.


       

    Offline nycfunkart

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    Re: Muslim Center Lower Manhattan
    « Reply #35 on: August 14, 2010, 06:54:39 AM »
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  • Agreed about religion now but why does something from 500 years ago have any place in this discussion?

    Offline BlueBerry

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    Re: Muslim Center Lower Manhattan
    « Reply #36 on: August 14, 2010, 07:41:48 AM »
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  • Nycfunk, I'm As "Lib" as Lib can be, I'm not sure this is a Lib or Con thing, it's just feelings. I don't want them to build it there not because of politricks but just out of respect.

    That said reading Bloombergs speech makes me think a bit harder about this all. With the exception of a few of the local wing nuts on this site, I'm so farking impressed with this thread. Really good stuff to read

    Offline nycfunkart

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    Re: Muslim Center Lower Manhattan
    « Reply #37 on: August 14, 2010, 08:18:35 AM »
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  • I'm talking about lib that goes so far as to believe the gov planned 911------ that brown trout sickens my stomach

    Offline kumachan

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    Re: Muslim Center Lower Manhattan
    « Reply #38 on: August 14, 2010, 08:57:36 AM »
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  • NYCfunkart, I agree with a lot of what you wrote, not so much the part about being "plain stupid".  After reading your post I'd like to ask a question: Are all people who identify themselves as being Muslim the enemy?  How are you defining, or better, how are you identifying, the enemy here? 
       
    Did anyone catch the union ironworker on the news last night?  His suggestion was that no union labor agree to work that site.  That's one way to stop the mosque being built.  The government denying permits for no legal reason shouldn't be.   

    Offline BOB

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    Re: Muslim Center Lower Manhattan
    « Reply #39 on: August 14, 2010, 12:53:54 PM »
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  •  Absolutely they should be allowed to do it. Private property and freedom of religion are more important than what I think about Islam. They're free to try to get their mosque built - and we're free to say what we think of the idea. I freely admit it, I am biased against Muslims. Not proud of it, not ashamed of it.

    Online The Lone Surfer

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    Re: Muslim Center Lower Manhattan
    « Reply #40 on: August 14, 2010, 01:19:55 PM »
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  • History shows that religious repression, hate, violence gives no one religion A free pass. It also shows that people may look differently on our current state of affairs in the future. I somehow can't imagine people 50 years from now saying 2010 is the year we finally took a stand against radical Islam by blocking the construction of a Muslim center near ground zero. In fact, I have a lot more fear of the emboldening the Palin Christian right, who will impose their religious law on me.

    Offline sweeps

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    Re: Muslim Center Lower Manhattan
    « Reply #41 on: August 14, 2010, 02:31:53 PM »
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  •   Yes, it is exceptionally distasteful that the Imam has chosen to build the Islamic Center two blocks away from ground zero, but, there is no law that prevents the Imam from purchasing the property and using it for a legally sanctioned purpose.  As much as I might disagree, an Islamic Cultural Center is a legal purpose.  Are the opponents of the mosque asking to make Islamic culture, or Islam, illegal? 


    I think that this is what has people up in arms more than anything.  It is in extremely bad taste, and yes they knew what they were doing when they decided to build right there, obviously.  Really, how many Muslims live in that area? They knew how people would react, especially with the planned opening, so they say, in the 10th year. I doubt there would have even been a discussion, or minimal at best, if they decided to build it in Harlem, or Brooklyn, Queens, etc., except for the NIMBY folks.  IDK, personally, I think one would have to be extremely naive to think that it wasn't almost wholly planned this way to get under NYers skin and spark debate exactly like this one, that is being argued right here.
    Whomsoever I've cured I've sickened now
    Whomsoever I've cradled I've put you down
    I'm a search light soul they say
    But I can't see it in the night
    I'm only faking when I get it right

    Offline kumachan

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    Re: Muslim Center Lower Manhattan
    « Reply #42 on: August 14, 2010, 03:17:08 PM »
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  • Agreed.  I believe that there are plenty of fundamentalist Muslims, and sympathizers, in the U.S. that will do anything or engage in inflammatory dialogue simply to provoke the basest possible reaction from U.S. citizens just to show that we are an anti-Islam society and are waging a new "crusade" against Islam. That's where the zealots win their political victories, IMHO.


    Listening to interviews on the news, it sounds as if many in NYC want is some kind of legislation outlawing Islam!

    Online Crackie Onassis

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    Re: Muslim Center Lower Manhattan
    « Reply #43 on: August 14, 2010, 08:13:21 PM »
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  • This is a first amendment issue, no?

    Anyway, they are two blocks away from Vesey Street on Park Place in the middle of the block. They've been there for thirteen years and own the property. So, why should they have to relocate? They have a right to renovate, no?

    They are not an upstart muslim community saying we want to buy this property at this location and build a mosque.

    « Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 03:37:46 PM by Crackie "Bottle" Onassis »
    So heavy you can't even pick it up.

    Offline kumachan

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    Re: Muslim Center Lower Manhattan
    « Reply #44 on: August 14, 2010, 09:18:24 PM »
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  • This is a first amendment issue, no?

    Not at this point. It will become a First Amendment issue if the government tries to intervene and prevent the center from being built.

     

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