[BlueBerry]

Dak, we went over the things that the FEDs do right. The evidence was pretty good that we have a pretty incredible government and agency. Not just the KILL&Protect branches but a bunch of other stuff, just saying. Easy to critique the beast but the reality is, they kind of rock.   

[BOB]

What has the Federal government ever run efficiently?

nothing is "run efficiently" sort of like life in general -  -well I take that back actually maybe those massive pagents in North Korea where everyone crowds into a stadium and flips http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arirang_Festival you can use your $100 to go there since American gov't is so god-awful

[HydroGlide]

yeah lets get rid of NASA and NOAA and let General Motors run those functions for us - hell lets just get rid of them we don't need space exploration and Teh Weather Channel is so much better than NOAA - and lets get rid of that government guarantee on social security too and let a firm like Lehman handle our money.    sadly the health care battle revolves around who administers the costs of care with some effort to control costs - but the system, the method for delivering revenues to the health care providers, revolves around higher levels of sickness.  Health care providers only make money when you are sick - so if they really want to make money, like any red blooded american anti-government capitalist would, wouldn't it behoove them to keep you sick?   Everybody being healthy would really destroy the EBITDA Fixed charge ratio for evryone from the mega hospital chain to the local pediatrics practice now wouldn't it - regardless if the "free" market (nuthins free) or the government handles the admin?
 
How about we pay doctors a small amount every month to keep us well and we stop paying them when we are sick?  Wouldn't that change the incentives around a bit - isn't that more capitalistic - don't we pay for cars that work (but return them (and stop paying for them) when they are lemons)?

[the Kook]

yeah lets get rid of NASA and NOAA and let General Motors run those  function - and lets get rid of that government guarantee on social security too and let a firm like Lehman handle our money!  sadly the health care battle revolves around who administers the costs of care with some effort to control costs - but the system, the method for delivering revenues to the health care providers, revolves around higher levels of sickness.  Health care providers only make money when you are sick - so if they really want to make money, like any red blooded american anti-government capitalist would, wouldn't it behoove them to keep you sick?   Everybody being healthy would really destroy the EBITDA Fixed charge ratio for evryone from the mega hospital chain to the local pediatrics practice now wouldn't it?
 
How about we pay doctors a small amount every month to keep us well and we stop paying them when we are sick?  Wouldn't that change the incentives around a bit - isn't that more capitalistic - don't we pay for cars that work (but return them (and stop paying for them) when they are lemons)?

Ding, ding, ding.   

Insert Quote
Dak, we went over the things that the FEDs do right. The evidence was pretty good that we have a pretty incredible government and agency. Not just the KILL&Protect branches but a bunch of other stuff, just saying. Easy to critique the beast but the reality is, they kind of rock. 

Agreed, that we have a pretty incredible government.  And I am not saying that they are not good at regulating things, just that things continually get bloated and bogged down with unnecessary paperwork/processes etc. 

[little_nasty]

no one has answered my original question. what's wrong with spacing out the three-in-one to three different shots? right or wrong, people have the belief that getting all 3 shots at once causes problems. is there any reduction in efficacy by spacing out the 3 shots?

It's actually very difficult to find all three components separately.
I am unaware of any doctors that stock them.

In the interest of full disclosure, we're doing a spaced/delayed vax schedule with Nat.
My husband and I wanted to break up MMR. Our doctor was happy to write us a prescription for the components but her other patients were reporting back that only one pharmacy in the surrounding few counties carried the individual components and they presently did not have all three. The one pharma-company that makes the separate components  available has ceased doing so for the time being and only does batches every few years.

When my husband and I went around for interviews with pediatricians before our son was born, most of them preferred sticking to a set schedule for vaccines (some the CDC schedule, some a modification of that). The doctors we spoke to cited paperwork/record keeping and convenience  as a justification for this.


Addressing the discussion of the flu vax above, NJ had made included it in the mandatory list for kids attending public school/daycares. This was repealed with this seasons shortage, and I believe Christie is not planning on reinstating it.

Jen, our doctor in the city had stock of the separate vaccines without ordering in advance.  PM me if you want her number.  She's great.

[snaggletooth]

yeah lets get rid of NASA and NOAA and let General Motors run those functions for us - hell lets just get rid of them we don't need space exploration and Teh Weather Channel is so much better than NOAA - and lets get rid of that government guarantee on social security too and let a firm like Lehman handle our money.    sadly the health care battle revolves around who administers the costs of care with some effort to control costs - but the system, the method for delivering revenues to the health care providers, revolves around higher levels of sickness.  Health care providers only make money when you are sick - so if they really want to make money, like any red blooded american anti-government capitalist would, wouldn't it behoove them to keep you sick?   Everybody being healthy would really destroy the EBITDA Fixed charge ratio for evryone from the mega hospital chain to the local pediatrics practice now wouldn't it - regardless if the "free" market (nuthins free) or the government handles the admin?
 
How about we pay doctors a small amount every month to keep us well and we stop paying them when we are sick?  Wouldn't that change the incentives around a bit - isn't that more capitalistic - don't we pay for cars that work (but return them (and stop paying for them) when they are lemons)?

yeah - incentives are fvcked up. if we changed the way we ate in this country, we'd have SIGNIFICANTLY lower healthcare costs.  but that would be largely unpopular with agri-business, parts of the healthcare business, and all those people who think big is beautiful (it ain't when you're dying from it)

[little_nasty]

yeah lets get rid of NASA and NOAA and let General Motors run those functions for us - hell lets just get rid of them we don't need space exploration and Teh Weather Channel is so much better than NOAA - and lets get rid of that government guarantee on social security too and let a firm like Lehman handle our money.    sadly the health care battle revolves around who administers the costs of care with some effort to control costs - but the system, the method for delivering revenues to the health care providers, revolves around higher levels of sickness.  Health care providers only make money when you are sick - so if they really want to make money, like any red blooded american anti-government capitalist would, wouldn't it behoove them to keep you sick?   Everybody being healthy would really destroy the EBITDA Fixed charge ratio for evryone from the mega hospital chain to the local pediatrics practice now wouldn't it - regardless if the "free" market (nuthins free) or the government handles the admin?
 
How about we pay doctors a small amount every month to keep us well and we stop paying them when we are sick?  Wouldn't that change the incentives around a bit - isn't that more capitalistic - don't we pay for cars that work (but return them (and stop paying for them) when they are lemons)?

yeah - incentives are fvcked up. if we changed the way we ate in this country, we'd have SIGNIFICANTLY lower healthcare costs.  but that would be largely unpopular with agri-business, parts of the healthcare business, and all those people who think big is beautiful (it ain't when you're dying from it)

http://www.walletpop.com/blog/2010/02/04/monsanto-the-evil-corporation-in-your-refrigerator/
 

[snaggletooth]

yeah lets get rid of NASA and NOAA and let General Motors run those functions for us - hell lets just get rid of them we don't need space exploration and Teh Weather Channel is so much better than NOAA - and lets get rid of that government guarantee on social security too and let a firm like Lehman handle our money.    sadly the health care battle revolves around who administers the costs of care with some effort to control costs - but the system, the method for delivering revenues to the health care providers, revolves around higher levels of sickness.  Health care providers only make money when you are sick - so if they really want to make money, like any red blooded american anti-government capitalist would, wouldn't it behoove them to keep you sick?   Everybody being healthy would really destroy the EBITDA Fixed charge ratio for evryone from the mega hospital chain to the local pediatrics practice now wouldn't it - regardless if the "free" market (nuthins free) or the government handles the admin?
 
How about we pay doctors a small amount every month to keep us well and we stop paying them when we are sick?  Wouldn't that change the incentives around a bit - isn't that more capitalistic - don't we pay for cars that work (but return them (and stop paying for them) when they are lemons)?

yeah - incentives are fvcked up. if we changed the way we ate in this country, we'd have SIGNIFICANTLY lower healthcare costs.  but that would be largely unpopular with agri-business, parts of the healthcare business, and all those people who think big is beautiful (it ain't when you're dying from it)

http://www.walletpop.com/blog/2010/02/04/monsanto-the-evil-corporation-in-your-refrigerator/
 

it is so sad what they have done to farmers and the overall health of this country. "Omnivore's Dilemma" has a great couple chapters that touch on the development of Monsanto (and agri-business, generally). Great read. I still haven't finished the book, but I'm already grateful for Pollan's work in so many ways.

[16ASteadyrock]

Oops! What's that? Well, well, well.
 
Once again, blind big pharma faith takes a hit courtesy of reality...
 
"A central figure behind the Center for Disease Control's (CDC) claims disputing the link between vaccines and autism and other neurological disorders has disappeared after officials discovered massive fraud involving the theft of millions in taxpayer dollars. Danish police are investigating Dr. Poul Thorsen, who has vanished along with almost $2 million that he had supposedly spent on research."
 
Well, how about that? Gee.
 
"Leading independent scientists have accused CDC of concealing the clear link between the dramatic increases in mercury-laced child vaccinations beginning in 1989 and the epidemic of autism, neurological disorders and other illnesses affecting every generation of American children since. Questions about Thorsens's scientific integrity may finally force CDC to rethink the vaccine protocols since most of the other key pro vaccine studies cited by CDC rely on the findings of Thorsen's research group. These include oft referenced research articles published by the Journal of the American Medical Association, the American Journal of Preventive Medicine, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the New England Journal of Medicine and others. The validity of all these studies is now in question."
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr/central-figure-in-cdc-vac_b_494303.html

[little_nasty]

But honestly, I just don't trust the system or the media.  I trust my doctor.  I trust most doctors, in fact.  Public health officials, not so much.  Political appointees or anyone else especially subject to the pharma lobby, almost not at all.  You gotta be kidding me if you think the entire list of vaccines is 100% in the best interests of health either individual or collective.  BS...

Try asking your pediatrician if they’ve read the results of the clinical studies.  Ask him/her how large the sample sizes were.  Ask them to help you understand the label that you read.  If you get a blank stare, well, I guess you're leaving it in the hands of your public health officials at CDC and the American academy of pediatricians.  I'm sure the individuals serving on that vaccine committee are good nice-minded people.  But I just don’t trust the organization or political dynamics that I suspect exist at that level.

 
can't truss 'em
 

[Årne Longbörgenssen]

Oops! What's that? Well, well, well.
 
Once again, blind big pharma faith takes a hit courtesy of reality...
 
"A central figure behind the Center for Disease Control's (CDC) claims disputing the link between vaccines and autism and other neurological disorders has disappeared after officials discovered massive fraud involving the theft of millions in taxpayer dollars. Danish police are investigating Dr. Poul Thorsen, who has vanished along with almost $2 million that he had supposedly spent on research."
 
Well, how about that? Gee.
 
"Leading independent scientists have accused CDC of concealing the clear link between the dramatic increases in mercury-laced child vaccinations beginning in 1989 and the epidemic of autism, neurological disorders and other illnesses affecting every generation of American children since. Questions about Thorsens's scientific integrity may finally force CDC to rethink the vaccine protocols since most of the other key pro vaccine studies cited by CDC rely on the findings of Thorsen's research group. These include oft referenced research articles published by the Journal of the American Medical Association, the American Journal of Preventive Medicine, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the New England Journal of Medicine and others. The validity of all these studies is now in question."
 
[url=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr/central-figure-in-cdc-vac_b_494303.html]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr/central-figure-in-cdc-vac_b_494303.html[/url]

yup, another conspiracy.


or, yet another illustration of how shallow thinking and the interweb can be used to fuel paranoia. the only thing interesting to me in this is that i didn't realize rfk jr was moron. it appears he is.


lets review:
- there has never been a shred of credible evidence showing that vaccines cause autism.
- one of the lead instigators of the non-existent link between vaccines and autism (Andrew Wakefield) is demonstrated to be a fraud, and his original piece of brown trout paper that started the shitstorm, is retracted by the journal that published it.
- the conspiracy theorists keep looking for signs of the conspiracy....for example this Thorsen thing


this guy says it better and more thoroughly than i'm motivated to:


http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/03/thorsen_wakefield_fine_art_of_distraction.php?utm_source=networkbanner&utm_medium=link

[SeaCliff]

Oops! What's that? Well, well, well.
 
Once again, blind big pharma faith takes a hit courtesy of reality...
 
"A central figure behind the Center for Disease Control's (CDC) claims disputing the link between vaccines and autism and other neurological disorders has disappeared after officials discovered massive fraud involving the theft of millions in taxpayer dollars. Danish police are investigating Dr. Poul Thorsen, who has vanished along with almost $2 million that he had supposedly spent on research."
 
Well, how about that? Gee.
 
"Leading independent scientists have accused CDC of concealing the clear link between the dramatic increases in mercury-laced child vaccinations beginning in 1989 and the epidemic of autism, neurological disorders and other illnesses affecting every generation of American children since. Questions about Thorsens's scientific integrity may finally force CDC to rethink the vaccine protocols since most of the other key pro vaccine studies cited by CDC rely on the findings of Thorsen's research group. These include oft referenced research articles published by the Journal of the American Medical Association, the American Journal of Preventive Medicine, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the New England Journal of Medicine and others. The validity of all these studies is now in question."
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr/central-figure-in-cdc-vac_b_494303.html[/]

yup, another conspiracy.


or, yet another illustration of how shallow thinking and the interweb can be used to fuel paranoia. the only thing interesting to me in this is that i didn't realize rfk jr was moron. it appears he is.


lets review:
- there has never been a shred of credible evidence showing that vaccines cause autism.
- one of the lead instigators of the non-existent link between vaccines and autism (Andrew Wakefield) is demonstrated to be a fraud, and his original piece of brown trout paper that started the shitstorm, is retracted by the journal that published it.
- the conspiracy theorists keep looking for signs of the conspiracy....for example this Thorsen thing


this guy says it better and more thoroughly than i'm motivated to:


http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/03/thorsen_wakefield_fine_art_of_distraction.php?utm_source=networkbanner&utm_medium=link

It's just an example of how this will never, ever die....if for no other reason than this fact: From the beginning of mankind's attempt at organized rule of countries and populations, people mistrust government. Perhaps and possibly even often the mistrust is earned, perhaps the mistrust is unwarranted, but it's real. So if the government says there's no link, some people will automatically assume the opposite. And since the government has been involved in vaccine development, production, and distribution from the beginning, all vaccines become suspect in the eye of the public.

And so, sadly, the multitude of independently funded studies that show no link whatsoever are somehow tainted/overlooked/ignored because of this government involvement/mistrust as people point to the grassy knoll and look beyond the independent facts for evidence of the government conspiracy. Which, even if it were to exist, wouldnt change the conclusions and findings of the independent studies at all.

And so the "debate" lingers on. Forever. And in the meantime, even more sadly, preventable diseases do more than just linger.

 

[Harry Balzsac]

On Friday, the US Court of Claims rejected the claims of plaintiffs alleging a connection between autism and the use of vaccines containing Thimerosal.  A key component of the decision was the failure of the experts offered by the plaintiffs to establish a causal nexus between autism and the use of vaccines with the mercury-based preservative.  The standard of proof in the US Court of Claims for compensation in cases like this one is lower than it is in a standard civil action in federal court.  The plaintiffs merely had to prove that it was probable that there was a causal connection between the vaccines and autism.  They could not do that.  The plaintiffs are allowed to, and likely will, appeal to the US Court of Appeals (I think appeals from the Court of Claims go to the 4th Cir.), where they will probably fail.  In the Court of Appeals, they will have to show that the judge in the Court of Claims abused his discretion, which is very difficult standard.  More on Friday's decision here.

Autism is terrible.  Two of my very close friends both have children who have autism or autism-spectrum syndromes.  I truly feel horribly about people whose children have autism.  I can't imagine the difficulty for them.  I also understand the desire to find somebody to blame.  Pharmaceutical companies make convenient targets.  They are easily portrayed as faceless, foreign villains with no concern about anything but the bottom line.  Moreover, their products have sometimes harmed users.  In those instances, the people injured by the drugs who successfully prosecuted claims against pharmaceutical companies brought their proof to the court and showed that 1) the injured person took the offending drug; 2) the drug was in some way defective 3) the defect in the drug was the proximate cause of the person's injury.  Over and over and over again, parents of autistic children have done the same thing and over and over again courts have found that they are unable to prove that the vaccines are the cause of autism. 

16A, your tone in this debate is so petty and smarmy.  Perhaps I set that tone in my initial reaction to your statement about getting assfucked by "big Pharma."  If so, for that, I apologize to you and to all who have participated.  But your subsequent responses, including the most recent one about Thorsen, smack of an annoying self-righteousness.  Conversely, Little Nasty, who is clearly suspicious of vaccines and seems to lean toward your side of this argument, presents his thoughts openly and without snark.  His thoughtful responses have actually caused me to reconsider my approach to the debate.  Ultimately, though, nobody is going to have their mind changed, so I'm pretty much done here.  However, in the spirit of your science-phobic approach to the debate, I offer you the latest from that paragon of autism research, Jenny McCarthy.  I hear Huffington Post is the go-to periodical for genetic scientists these days.

[BOB]

I know, who says stuff like

Well, well, well.

SO condescendingly smug, I bet your fun at parties -  anyway scientific theories are not built on single "facts" alone but on a  convergence of evidence assembled from multiple lines of inquiry

[little_nasty]

i appreciate reading the rebuttals and take them to heart.  To be clear, my view on vaccines is not really centered on the link (or lack thereof) between thimerisol and autism.  Looking at the science, it does not appear to be the case.  However, one issue that i would take with the science-blog piece (or Bubba's citation of court rulings) is that despite what every purist (purist scientist, purist lawyer, purist judge, purist journal juror, etc.) might think, the reality is that science is not 100% empirical.  unfortunately.  believe me.  i am a physics-major purist.  i never wanted to muddy and debase my math with (eeek) "social sciences" such as economics and the like.
 
But just like our justice system, science has a process.  The "laws" of physics, just as the "laws of nature" or "inalienable rights", are decided by men (and a very very few women).  And that's that.  That's the end of the purity.  Because we're all human and not robots, and inject a lot of other "stuff" into that process and decisions.  in the grand scheme of things and as a humanist, i think this is actually better.  Humanity.  But it has its flaws.
 
Anyway, the author seems to make the claim that thorsen's participation as a "middling" author invalidates the entire questioning of the work burdened with his name, and more importantly, asserts that the scientific method is, in practice, devoid of personality.  I can unequivocally argue that claim is false.  So, while i would agree that the anti-vaccine crew is working a largely political/PR campaign based on the persons rather than the "science", i would say (i) what else is new? just ask Galileo, and (ii) our science is a human endeavor.  Personally, i think it's great that there's close scrutiny of this issue.  It might reassure me someday (though politics can also certainly cloud things and make it worse).
 
In the end, science usually finds a way to eventually get it right (maybe around the same pace as our justice system).  But for me and my daughter, "in the end" is a long way off when decisions need to be made today.  And so, i am thankful that at least in our country I have to freedom to assert much of my own judgment for the welfare of my family rather than it been ceded to whatever political wind blew in the latest ruler.
 
And isn't that really what PE was all about?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
i know i've pushed this author before.  imho, must read on this topic.
 
http://www.amazon.com/Science-Action-Scientists-Engineers-through/dp/0674792912/
 
http://www.amazon.com/Politics-Nature-Bring-Sciences-Democracy/dp/0674013476/
 
http://www.amazon.com/Pandoras-Hope-Reality-Science-Studies/dp/067465336X/