Author Topic: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism  (Read 2561 times)

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Online Årne Longbörgenssen

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Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2010, 06:27:30 PM »
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  • a few random points

    1) while the old mario would have been more easily drawn into a good round of mudslinging and personal attacks, the new, more highly evolved, medicated, Thorium is a little taken aback by the vitriol. in this discussion, the namecalling is a nice illustration of art imitating life or something like that. "whatever do you mean, thorium ?" glad you asked. i think one of the things driving conspiracy theorists is inability to deal with the transition from underling to authority, or feeling stuck in, or overidentified with the role of the powerless, abused victim. feeling like YOU have figured out the conspiracy, and really know the truth, is a way out of this. unfortunaltely when you start calling conspiracy theorists names, it just confirms their theories (i.e. you are just an abusive asshole).

    2) bubba: its easy: putting aside the use to denote the posessive case, an apostrophe is used in place of a missing letter when two words are joined, i.e. in a contraction. thus, "it+is" becomes "it's", and "am+not" becomes "amn't"

    3) wending its way through some of the comments on this thread is the idea that even if it hasn't been proven that vaccines, for example, are bad, people should have the right to make medical decisions about risks for themselves and their children. well...yes and no. to me, the thorniest part of this question is how much much risk should a parent be allowed to decide is ok for his or her own kid. lets leave that aside for a second. another issue is that vaccination is not just made available to protect the individuals being vaccinated. there's the cost to society of the people who get sick, as well as the interference with the development of what's known as "herd immunity", an epidemiological term. in addition to protecting individuals, public vaccination reduces the reservoir of susceptible individuals that a pathogen can use to replicate and perpetuate itself. when enough individuals are immune, a pathogen has nowhere to reproduce, and is eradicated, like smallpox. its estimated that 95% percent of the "herd" has to be immunized to develop significant herd immunity. When you get significantly below this number, as has happened after the autism /vaccination scare diseases start coming back (e.g. the new cases and DEATHS from measles). so when people make their own decisions not to get vaccinated, or vaccinate their children, they're also making decisions for other members of the current herd, and future herds. so lets say a kid wasn't vaccinated yet, or someone has an immune problem...whenever i hear someone talk about having decided not to vaccinate, or alter the recommended schedule, i don't recall ever having heard them talk about how they consulted the rest of society, or other parents, and asked them if it was ok to put them or their kids at increased risk as well.
    « Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 06:31:06 PM by Thorium Longoboardi »
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    Offline HydroGlide

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #31 on: February 05, 2010, 10:19:30 AM »
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  • finally - I now know that vaccination is the reason for my friend always  moooooooo-ing loudly everytime we got stuck in a human traffic jam in the Flatbush Ave train station.  Autism is devastating, especially when you see the kids grow up and a mom has a 200 pound teenaged autistic manchild to try to sheperd through life.  The obvious problem is that we have so little understanding of what autism really is and how it originates so its (is that i'ts or it'z, or it'izeth?) only natural for people to want to point a finger at something/one to blame (just like people may eventually do after someone dies) but only real science will help us to gain better insight. The idea that people are refusing vaccinations is really kind of scary. What Mario posted is even more scary (or is that mo'scarys?) cause living around here I doubt 95% of the people are vaccinated especially given the percentage of legal and illegal immigrants living around here. Just think of 100 people on a subway platform near you - is there a chance that 7 to 10 of them are not vaccinated?  But then again, population control is a much bigger problem going forward than climate change - maybe the return of previously bannished diseases is just mother nature's (mother's nature?) way of finding a way to say "die bitches" to our herd once again.  (Remember if the plague hits again - cats are good - they kill rats - and science is pretty sure now that cats are NOT witches).

    Online Harry Balzsac

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #32 on: February 05, 2010, 11:06:19 AM »
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  • I amn't sure that cats are'nt witches.  I am sure the'yre evil.  When the next plague comes and wipes out two thirds of us because wer'e too stupid to take advantage of a good thing when its right their in front of us, the fucki'n cats are gon'na take over.   

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #33 on: February 05, 2010, 11:28:02 AM »
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  • I amn't sure that cats are'nt witches.  I am sure the'yre evil.  When the next plague comes and wipes out two thirds of us because wer'e too stupid to take advantage of a good thing when its right their in front of us, the fucki'n cats are gon'na take over.   

    Finally, something in this thread I can agree with without reservation.
    "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

    "If surfing has a soul, it is aloha: welcome, hospitality, generosity without thought of recompense.-Thad Ziolkowski NY Times 8/11/11


    Online Harry Balzsac

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #34 on: February 05, 2010, 01:37:42 PM »
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  •  On a serious note, here's an article by a pediatrician about the Wakefield scandal.  I think the author does a very good job laying out exactly why Wakefield’s story was so dangerous and the role the mainstream media played in its dissemination.

    The Autism-Vaccine Lie that Won't Die  The media trumpeted an irresponsible study, ensuring that its nasty legacy thrives  By Rahul K. Parikh, M.D.

    This week, Dr. Andrew Wakefield's now infamous study linking the MMR vaccine to autism was finally retracted by the prestigious Lancet medical journal. The move came days after medical officials in the United Kingdom found the doctor guilty of multiple ethics violations. For doctors, this is a victory -- but a bittersweet one.

    As a pediatrician, I grapple daily with what Wakefield wrought: parents who are twisted in knots -- to the point of tears -- about whether to immunize their child. In the 12 years since the publication of Wakefield's study, 10 of his fellow co-authors have denounced him, and an unremitting series of revelations have exposed just how corrupt his motives and methods were. Most important, multiple studies verified there is no link between the MMR (or any other) vaccine and autism. Meanwhile, infectious diseases once confined to medical history have broken out in our communities. To say the retraction is criminally overdue is an understatement.

    Further, even as Wakefield's research is expunged from the scientific record, what he spawned -- a well-funded, vocal, even rabid movement -- will remain. Without him, poster girl Jenny McCarthy would have been abandoned in the MTV archives instead of smugly crowing to Time magazine, "I do believe sadly it's going to take some diseases coming back to realize that we need to change and develop vaccines that are safe. If the vaccine companies are not listening to us, it's their f___ing fault that the diseases are coming back. They're making a product that's s___ ." And anti-vaccine darling David Kirby would split his time between running a P.R. firm and writing pithy articles about art and aircraft instead of turning speculation and rumor into a Kennedy-esque vaccine-autism conspiracy theory. Finally, Wakefield himself stands to be completely unaffected by both the U.K. medical community (which could revoke his license to practice there) and the Lancet's decision. He long ago settled here in the U.S. and successfully peddles his views through his Thoughtful House autism center in Texas. 

    Still, while the media busily finger-wagged, blogged and tweeted about the damnation of Andrew Wakefield, I wondered whether it considered its own complicity in the whole sordid affair.

    The anti-vaccine hysteria, after all, began like so many other big stories: with a press conference. That's where Andrew Wakefield first staked his claim that the MMR vaccine caused autism, according to Paul Offit's book, "Autism's False Prophets." Wakefield wasn't flanked by doctors or hospital officials but by P.R. folks he had hired himself. "One case of [autism] is too many," he said. "It's a moral issue for me, and I can't support the continued use of [the MMR vaccine] until this issue has been resolved."

    The problem, of course, is that a news conference loads a gun that the media usually pulls the trigger on: Headlines like "Ban Three-in-One Jab, Doctors Urge" started rolling off the presses. While measles made a tragic resurgence, few reporters attempted to scrutinize Wakefield or his audacious claim. (Even Salon has its own history of bad reporting on the topic, in a controversial and inaccurate 2005 piece by Robert F. Kennedy Jr.)

    Former CNN reporter Gary Schwitzer is a University of Minnesota professor whose expertise is healthcare and the media, and he sees complicated issues in their intersection. "I tell my students to look for stories that are counterintuitive, because they can make good news," he told me. But if reporters don't care about the underlying science, and don't have the tools to dissect and question it, "it can be very easy to get excited about hazards and scares" that lack a credible basis.

    Then there's the pressure to report something, anything to make your bosses happy. Schwitzer told me about a story he covered for CNN in the 1980s, when Utah doctors first tried to implant an artificial heart in a patient. He recalled how the doctors would have hourly news conferences updating the patient's condition. In it, they mostly recited mundane facts, like the amount of urine the patient was producing. But Schwitzer had to get on camera almost hourly and update viewers with something, whatever it might be.

    Frankly, progress in science and medicine occurs much more slowly than the news cycle can tolerate. "Science," says Schwitzer, "is like a slow winding stream. It has ebbs and flows, and twists and changes in its path that, if you don't follow, can fool you. But too many reporters, unfortunately, like to dip their toe in the water, run back and report about it without following that river to where it leads."

    Rather than dig for details, many reporters rely on "balance" instead. My favorite comment about this comes from, of all people, Arianna Huffington. Sometimes, she says, there simply aren't two sides to a story. Evolution, for instance. Or global warming. And given the weight of scientific, legal and ethical evidence against anti-vaccinationists, you'd think Huffington would heed her own rhetoric. Yet there was her Web site, with stories turning Wakefield into a martyr and twisting innuendo into medical fact. And it's not just HuffPo -- CNN, in a report on Wakefield, added "balance" to its coverage by featuring Kim Stagliano, the co-founder of anti-vaccine group Age of Autism.

    But it's unfair to hold the mainstream media completely responsible for its behavior. The Lancet, one of the world's most well-known medical publications, played an enormous role here, showing us how medical journals are at risk for their own kinds of malpractice. Offit's "False Prophets" details how Richard Horton, then the journal's editor in chief, seemed enamored of the notion of publishing something muckraking. As Offit writes, "By ignoring the criticisms of several reviewers, the warnings of an accompanying editorial, Wakefield's history of holding press conferences, a British press primed for controversy, and a public distrustful of pubic health officials, Richard Horton allowed the public to question the safety of a vaccine based on flimsy, irreproducible data. The loss of the public trust that followed was entirely predictable."

    Gary Schwitzer points out that, like magazines, newspapers and the Web, medical journals have business interests as well. For example, major journals regularly publish their own news releases. "They don't carry everything, just the sexier items." Those items, he believes, are probably not chosen by a committee of peer reviewers, but rather by employees whose goal is to increase the visibility, prestige, advertising and reprint revenue of their publication. Also, the very fact that these releases come from a medical journal lead reporters to believe "it's etched in stone on a mountaintop." Reporters latch on, using the old standby "according to a study in the [fill in title of journal]" to lend credibility to their shocking story. The problem, of course, is that nobody bothers to check the credibility of the study in the first place.

    Still, despite it all, there is room for a little hope between the media and medicine. The inflection point in the history of the Andrew Wakefield Affair came because one individual wouldn't stop asking questions, raising doubts and digging deeper. His name is Brian Deer, an investigative reporter for the Times of London. It was his research and reporting that exposed Wakefield's malfeasance. When Deer first confronted Richard Horton and the Lancet editors with what he had discovered back in 2004, even Horton -- stubbornly defensive even now about his decision to publish Wakefield's study -- gasped. "The allegations made by Deer, as I saw them were devastating," he recalled.

    Deer's reputation and hard work got a big pop-culture boost on this side of the pond as well. It was his reporting that inspired Keith Olbermann to declare Andrew Wakefield the "Worst Person in the World" on his show a year ago .

    But the next day, Olbermann, like some preying mantis eating its own, turned around and anointed Brian Deer as one of the worst persons in the world for having an alleged conflict of interest in the Wakefield investigation himself. He did not, as it turns out; the allegation proved false, but not before anti-vaccine bullies at HuffPo and the Age of Autism trumpeted it on the Web. It was hard to believe Olbermann hadn't been pressured by them.

    [size=2]Bittersweet, indeed. [/font][/font][/size]
    « Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 02:08:49 PM by Bubba McOldensack »

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #35 on: February 05, 2010, 01:46:10 PM »
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  • Excellent piece, Bubba - thanks for posting it!
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    Offline 16ASteadyrock

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #36 on: February 05, 2010, 06:26:36 PM »
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  • "I called the assertion that one who is less than generally skeptical of the efficacy of vaccines ought to get assfucked by big pharma one of the most stupid things I've (Iv'e?) heard in a long time.  I maintain that position.  Douche."


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    Offline 16ASteadyrock

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #37 on: February 05, 2010, 06:28:43 PM »
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  • Of course you do. Congrats.

    The problem is your audience. They can read the news reports for themselves. Those reports, and numerous others I could find with minimal effort, contain facts, and facts are not alarmist, people are; like yourself, amusingly taken aback by what, under sensible examination, is actually a very mild and heavily-substantiated assertion.

    I'm telling folks there's reason to be wary. If you--or anyone else--doesn't think so, hey... go with your gut. Knock yourself out.

    Stand rigidly by the radical suggestion that all vaccines are created equal and have never, in any instance, done more damage than good. (We can all see your determination. Hey, that counts for something.)

    Trouble is my first post presents facts that plainly discredit that assertion. I'll give you a hint: 1976. Go look again.

    Or don't. I honestly don't care about your views. You've already demonstrated to the grown-ups present that your critical thinking is heavy on the former, woefully light on the latter.

    Meanwhile, it's always entertaining when people defensively invoke the label of a conspiracy theorist. (Douche is a much more thoughtful gem.) Where's the conspiracy? I mean, really--is the fact that profit-driven corporations often put their mercenary interests ahead of the public good really a controversial claim?

    Yeah? How precious. What Disneyland ride are you sucking your thumb on?

    Okay. Just kidding. You're right. Of course. I'm so sorry. Let me take off my tin-foil hat now.

    Asbestos manufacturers never hid evidence that the mineral was dangerous even as tens of thousands of workers died from exposure. Never happened!

    There have been no young women harmed by Gardasil. Just a myth!

    Powerful industries employing armies of lawyers, lobbyists, and PR firms never, ever use their influence to produce compromised scientific research or squash credible scientific research. Never happens!

    So definitely, definitely don't read the following people--it is but the mad ramblings of a known conspiracy theorist:


    The cell-phone industry funds lots of risk studies, and many of them show no effect from cell-phone-related radiation. The industry pointed to those favorable studies when countering Lai's DNA findings. (In 2004, it should be pointed out, a European Union–funded study carried out by twelve research groups in seven countries found evidence of genotoxic effects resulting from cell-phone radiation—the same kind of DNA damage that Henry Lai uncovered in the 1990s.) But when Jerry Phillips, a scientist with the Veterans Administration whose work was funded by Motorola, replicated Lai's findings, the company put him under so much pressure not to publish that Phillips abruptly quit microwave research altogether.


    Yes, that never happened. What underground commie rag would publish such heresy?!

    GQ.

    Anyway, look, at the very least, I sincerely hope you're a Big Pharma publicist who can bill your time for this...

    Would hate to think you're just an amateur clown.
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    Online Årne Longbörgenssen

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #38 on: February 05, 2010, 11:12:20 PM »
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  • oh no.

    not the cell phone thing again.

    i'm counting to ten.

    dammit.



    ok, here goes.

    i'm not sure GQ is the source i would go to for in depth critical analysis of the cell tower scare.

    if you actually take a look at the primary data, as well as consider the basic physics of radiofrequency electromagnetic radiation, and the basic biology of cellular function and putative mechanisms of dysregulation and mutation, it would be clear that the cell radiation scare is just plain silly. but the tsunami of misinterpreted data and alarmism is almost identical to the autism vaccine hoo-haa.

    go to college. take physics, chemistry, biology, and statistics, and review the couple of hundred papers i'm going to e-mail you, and we'll talk some more.
    The energy contained in one kilogram of thorium
    equals four thousand tons of coal

    Offline little_nasty

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #39 on: February 06, 2010, 02:28:09 AM »
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  • 3) wending its way through some of the comments on this thread is the idea that even if it hasn't been proven that vaccines, for example, are bad, people should have the right to make medical decisions about risks for themselves and their children. well...yes and no. to me, the thorniest part of this question is how much much risk should a parent be allowed to decide is ok for his or her own kid. lets leave that aside for a second. another issue is that vaccination is not just made available to protect the individuals being vaccinated. there's the cost to society of the people who get sick, as well as the interference with the development of what's known as "herd immunity", an epidemiological term. in addition to protecting individuals, public vaccination reduces the reservoir of susceptible individuals that a pathogen can use to replicate and perpetuate itself. when enough individuals are immune, a pathogen has nowhere to reproduce, and is eradicated, like smallpox. its estimated that 95% percent of the "herd" has to be immunized to develop significant herd immunity. When you get significantly below this number, as has happened after the autism /vaccination scare diseases start coming back (e.g. the new cases and DEATHS from measles). so when people make their own decisions not to get vaccinated, or vaccinate their children, they're also making decisions for other members of the current herd, and future herds. so lets say a kid wasn't vaccinated yet, or someone has an immune problem...whenever i hear someone talk about having decided not to vaccinate, or alter the recommended schedule, i don't recall ever having heard them talk about how they consulted the rest of society, or other parents, and asked them if it was ok to put them or their kids at increased risk as well.

    I’m really glad you brought this up.  I was meaning to post about this particular part of the issue, but didn’t have time earlier.

    We debated long and hard about the moral issues surrounding vaccination of our 2.5 y.o.  The number of vaccines on the schedule is well, frightening if you ask me.  Personally, I 100% do not believe that the welfare of my child is best served by getting them all.  I am also 85% certain that the welfare of society is not best served by every child getting all those shots.  I am 99% certain that the welfare of the drug companies & associates are served quite well by all those things.

    Now, do I trust my pediatrician to have addressed that balance between public and individual welfare/health?  Yes, I do.  But frankly, it’s a judgment call.  I am pretty sure that my moral/welfare individual/society calculus is a little different than hers – and we’ve gone to the mat on some issues.  But at what point do you take the decision out of the hands of the individual parents into the hands of “health professionals” or public health policy makers for the good of the collective/society?  When does gov’t or some body of doctors need to step in to protect the public from their ignorance (or is education the key – both the public and the media)?  I really don’t know.  But honestly, I just don’t trust the system or the media.  I trust my doctor.  I trust most doctors, in fact.  Public health officials, not so much.  Political appointees or anyone else especially subject to the pharma lobby, almost not at all.  You gotta be kidding me if you think the entire list of vaccines is 100% in the best interests of health either individual or collective.  BS.

    My personal decisions have been based on talking with my pediatrician and actually reading the research, epidemiology, and clinical studies.  The data is pretty readily available if you search and/or ask for it.  If you can’t find it that’s a sign.  For example, here’s the simple label for Prevnar, http://www.wyeth.com/content/showlabeling.asp?id=134.  If a drug is relatively new and based on some BS flimsy 6-mo trial in 2007 on 24 white kids in Idaho, well, eff that.  And really some of them are just silly when you weigh the costs (i.e. 12% risk of acquiring the illness from the vaccine, 20% chance of fever, XX% chance of UNKNOWN UNSTUDIED UNDETECTABLE without LONGTERM study, “You don’t know what you don’t know!”, etc.) vs. benefits (65% protection from some virus that is typically 2 days of diarrhea and gone). 
    Try asking your pediatrician if they’ve read the results of the clinical studies.  Ask him/her how large the sample sizes were.  Ask them to help you understand the label that you read.  If you get a blank stare, well, I guess you’re leaving it in the hands of your public health officials at CDC and the American academy of pediatricians.  I’m sure the individuals serving on that vaccine committee are good nice-minded people.  But I just don’t trust the organization or political dynamics that I suspect exist at that level.

    Anyway, that’s my rant.  Actually I hope thorium can assure me that I’m just a paranoid conspiracy nut.  It’s just that the downside is potentially so huge though the chances may be small.  Another risk judgment call that I’m just not sure I trust other people to make for me.
     
    if you actually take a look at the primary data, as well as consider the basic physics of radiofrequency electromagnetic radiation, and the basic biology of cellular function and putative mechanisms of dysregulation and mutation, it would be clear that the cell radiation scare is just plain silly. but the tsunami of misinterpreted data and alarmism is almost identical to the autism vaccine hoo-haa.

    go to college. take physics, chemistry, biology, and statistics, and review the couple of hundred papers i'm going to e-mail you, and we'll talk some more.

    I contend that it's not necessary to have an M.S., M.D., PhD, M.Sc. or whatever.  With all these things, you just have to look at the data yourself and not rely on some numbskull from the MEDIA to be able to distill it for you.  Why?  'Cause 90% of the time, that numbskull is less educated and dumber than you.  It's like taking surf lessons from the guy out in August with a 5/4 w/hood and swim goggles flailing in the soup on his rental foamtop (waxed on the bottom) yet will get in front of a camera and claim to have "researched" surfing to give you his 30-sec "surfs up dude!" report on how it's properly done meanwhile with some strategic product placement for your own killer webbed paddle gloves and/or leading into advert for a nissan xterra so you too can be a rad charger with your fashionable lumberjack good-looks and flannel shirt!
    « Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 02:42:28 AM by little_nasty »

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #40 on: February 06, 2010, 08:44:14 AM »
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  • I never said the decision should be taken out of the hands of the parents.  I do think, however, that parents who do not vaccinate their children are irresponsible and are putting my children at risk.  Laugh off "two days of diarrhea" if you want to, but two days of diarrhea nearly killed me as an infant.  Seriously.  Like, dead. 

    Anyway, I read the stories about vaccines, asked my pediatrician and my sister-in-law (M.D./PHd, infectious disease, Johns Hopkins University), read the science (thankfully, not in the Lancet) and decided that my concerns were based not on fact but on alarmist speculation in the media.  Both my children have had all their vaccinations because I think its better for them to have them. 


    Online Årne Longbörgenssen

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #41 on: February 06, 2010, 08:59:04 AM »
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  • nasty, you've got some nerve commenting in a thoughtful intelligent manner. i still disagree with some of what you said, but i'm actually going to have to plug my brain in to respond to your comment in the way that i'd like, and i'm not sure that's happening today.
    The energy contained in one kilogram of thorium
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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #42 on: February 06, 2010, 09:46:11 AM »
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  • 3) wending its way through some of the comments on this thread is the idea that even if it hasn't been proven that vaccines, for example, are bad, people should have the right to make medical decisions about risks for themselves and their children. well...yes and no. to me, the thorniest part of this question is how much much risk should a parent be allowed to decide is ok for his or her own kid. lets leave that aside for a second. another issue is that vaccination is not just made available to protect the individuals being vaccinated. there's the cost to society of the people who get sick, as well as the interference with the development of what's known as "herd immunity", an epidemiological term. in addition to protecting individuals, public vaccination reduces the reservoir of susceptible individuals that a pathogen can use to replicate and perpetuate itself. when enough individuals are immune, a pathogen has nowhere to reproduce, and is eradicated, like smallpox. its estimated that 95% percent of the "herd" has to be immunized to develop significant herd immunity. When you get significantly below this number, as has happened after the autism /vaccination scare diseases start coming back (e.g. the new cases and DEATHS from measles). so when people make their own decisions not to get vaccinated, or vaccinate their children, they're also making decisions for other members of the current herd, and future herds. so lets say a kid wasn't vaccinated yet, or someone has an immune problem...whenever i hear someone talk about having decided not to vaccinate, or alter the recommended schedule, i don't recall ever having heard them talk about how they consulted the rest of society, or other parents, and asked them if it was ok to put them or their kids at increased risk as well.

    I’m really glad you brought this up.  I was meaning to post about this particular part of the issue, but didn’t have time earlier.

    We debated long and hard about the moral issues surrounding vaccination of our 2.5 y.o.  The number of vaccines on the schedule is well, frightening if you ask me.  Personally, I 100% do not believe that the welfare of my child is best served by getting them all.  I am also 85% certain that the welfare of society is not best served by every child getting all those shots.  I am 99% certain that the welfare of the drug companies & associates are served quite well by all those things.

    Now, do I trust my pediatrician to have addressed that balance between public and individual welfare/health?  Yes, I do.  But frankly, it’s a judgment call.  I am pretty sure that my moral/welfare individual/society calculus is a little different than hers – and we’ve gone to the mat on some issues.  But at what point do you take the decision out of the hands of the individual parents into the hands of “health professionals” or public health policy makers for the good of the collective/society?  When does gov’t or some body of doctors need to step in to protect the public from their ignorance (or is education the key – both the public and the media)?  I really don’t know.  But honestly, I just don’t trust the system or the media.  I trust my doctor.  I trust most doctors, in fact.  Public health officials, not so much.  Political appointees or anyone else especially subject to the pharma lobby, almost not at all.  You gotta be kidding me if you think the entire list of vaccines is 100% in the best interests of health either individual or collective.  BS.

    My personal decisions have been based on talking with my pediatrician and actually reading the research, epidemiology, and clinical studies.  The data is pretty readily available if you search and/or ask for it.  If you can’t find it that’s a sign.  For example, here’s the simple label for Prevnar, http://www.wyeth.com/content/showlabeling.asp?id=134.  If a drug is relatively new and based on some BS flimsy 6-mo trial in 2007 on 24 white kids in Idaho, well, eff that.  And really some of them are just silly when you weigh the costs (i.e. 12% risk of acquiring the illness from the vaccine, 20% chance of fever, XX% chance of UNKNOWN UNSTUDIED UNDETECTABLE without LONGTERM study, “You don’t know what you don’t know!”, etc.) vs. benefits (65% protection from some virus that is typically 2 days of diarrhea and gone). 
    Try asking your pediatrician if they’ve read the results of the clinical studies.  Ask him/her how large the sample sizes were.  Ask them to help you understand the label that you read.  If you get a blank stare, well, I guess you’re leaving it in the hands of your public health officials at CDC and the American academy of pediatricians.  I’m sure the individuals serving on that vaccine committee are good nice-minded people.  But I just don’t trust the organization or political dynamics that I suspect exist at that level.

    Anyway, that’s my rant.  Actually I hope thorium can assure me that I’m just a paranoid conspiracy nut.  It’s just that the downside is potentially so huge though the chances may be small.  Another risk judgment call that I’m just not sure I trust other people to make for me.
     
    if you actually take a look at the primary data, as well as consider the basic physics of radiofrequency electromagnetic radiation, and the basic biology of cellular function and putative mechanisms of dysregulation and mutation, it would be clear that the cell radiation scare is just plain silly. but the tsunami of misinterpreted data and alarmism is almost identical to the autism vaccine hoo-haa.

    go to college. take physics, chemistry, biology, and statistics, and review the couple of hundred papers i'm going to e-mail you, and we'll talk some more.

    I contend that it's not necessary to have an M.S., M.D., PhD, M.Sc. or whatever.  With all these things, you just have to look at the data yourself and not rely on some numbskull from the MEDIA to be able to distill it for you.  Why?  'Cause 90% of the time, that numbskull is less educated and dumber than you.  It's like taking surf lessons from the guy out in August with a 5/4 w/hood and swim goggles flailing in the soup on his rental foamtop (waxed on the bottom) yet will get in front of a camera and claim to have "researched" surfing to give you his 30-sec "surfs up dude!" report on how it's properly done meanwhile with some strategic product placement for your own killer webbed paddle gloves and/or leading into advert for a nissan xterra so you too can be a rad charger with your fashionable lumberjack good-looks and flannel shirt!


    thank you for that.

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #43 on: February 06, 2010, 09:54:25 AM »
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  • no one has answered my original question. what's wrong with spacing out the three-in-one to three different shots? right or wrong, people have the belief that getting all 3 shots at once causes problems. is there any reduction in efficacy by spacing out the 3 shots?

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #44 on: February 06, 2010, 09:57:05 AM »
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  • 3) wending its way through some of the comments on this thread is the idea that even if it hasn't been proven that vaccines, for example, are bad, people should have the right to make medical decisions about risks for themselves and their children. well...yes and no. to me, the thorniest part of this question is how much much risk should a parent be allowed to decide is ok for his or her own kid. lets leave that aside for a second. another issue is that vaccination is not just made available to protect the individuals being vaccinated. there's the cost to society of the people who get sick, as well as the interference with the development of what's known as "herd immunity", an epidemiological term. in addition to protecting individuals, public vaccination reduces the reservoir of susceptible individuals that a pathogen can use to replicate and perpetuate itself. when enough individuals are immune, a pathogen has nowhere to reproduce, and is eradicated, like smallpox. its estimated that 95% percent of the "herd" has to be immunized to develop significant herd immunity. When you get significantly below this number, as has happened after the autism /vaccination scare diseases start coming back (e.g. the new cases and DEATHS from measles). so when people make their own decisions not to get vaccinated, or vaccinate their children, they're also making decisions for other members of the current herd, and future herds. so lets say a kid wasn't vaccinated yet, or someone has an immune problem...whenever i hear someone talk about having decided not to vaccinate, or alter the recommended schedule, i don't recall ever having heard them talk about how they consulted the rest of society, or other parents, and asked them if it was ok to put them or their kids at increased risk as well.

    I’m really glad you brought this up.  I was meaning to post about this particular part of the issue, but didn’t have time earlier.

    We debated long and hard about the moral issues surrounding vaccination of our 2.5 y.o.  The number of vaccines on the schedule is well, frightening if you ask me.  Personally, I 100% do not believe that the welfare of my child is best served by getting them all.  I am also 85% certain that the welfare of society is not best served by every child getting all those shots.  I am 99% certain that the welfare of the drug companies & associates are served quite well by all those things.

    Now, do I trust my pediatrician to have addressed that balance between public and individual welfare/health?  Yes, I do.  But frankly, it’s a judgment call.  I am pretty sure that my moral/welfare individual/society calculus is a little different than hers – and we’ve gone to the mat on some issues.  But at what point do you take the decision out of the hands of the individual parents into the hands of “health professionals” or public health policy makers for the good of the collective/society?  When does gov’t or some body of doctors need to step in to protect the public from their ignorance (or is education the key – both the public and the media)?  I really don’t know.  But honestly, I just don’t trust the system or the media.  I trust my doctor.  I trust most doctors, in fact.  Public health officials, not so much.  Political appointees or anyone else especially subject to the pharma lobby, almost not at all.  You gotta be kidding me if you think the entire list of vaccines is 100% in the best interests of health either individual or collective.  BS.

    My personal decisions have been based on talking with my pediatrician and actually reading the research, epidemiology, and clinical studies.  The data is pretty readily available if you search and/or ask for it.  If you can’t find it that’s a sign.  For example, here’s the simple label for Prevnar, http://www.wyeth.com/content/showlabeling.asp?id=134[/].  If a drug is relatively new and based on some BS flimsy 6-mo trial in 2007 on 24 white kids in Idaho, well, eff that.  And really some of them are just silly when you weigh the costs (i.e. 12% risk of acquiring the illness from the vaccine, 20% chance of fever, XX% chance of UNKNOWN UNSTUDIED UNDETECTABLE without LONGTERM study, “You don’t know what you don’t know!”, etc.) vs. benefits (65% protection from some virus that is typically 2 days of diarrhea and gone). 
    Try asking your pediatrician if they’ve read the results of the clinical studies.  Ask him/her how large the sample sizes were.  Ask them to help you understand the label that you read.  If you get a blank stare, well, I guess you’re leaving it in the hands of your public health officials at CDC and the American academy of pediatricians.  I’m sure the individuals serving on that vaccine committee are good nice-minded people.  But I just don’t trust the organization or political dynamics that I suspect exist at that level.

    Anyway, that’s my rant.  Actually I hope thorium can assure me that I’m just a paranoid conspiracy nut.  It’s just that the downside is potentially so huge though the chances may be small.  Another risk judgment call that I’m just not sure I trust other people to make for me.
     
    if you actually take a look at the primary data, as well as consider the basic physics of radiofrequency electromagnetic radiation, and the basic biology of cellular function and putative mechanisms of dysregulation and mutation, it would be clear that the cell radiation scare is just plain silly. but the tsunami of misinterpreted data and alarmism is almost identical to the autism vaccine hoo-haa.

    go to college. take physics, chemistry, biology, and statistics, and review the couple of hundred papers i'm going to e-mail you, and we'll talk some more.

    I contend that it's not necessary to have an M.S., M.D., PhD, M.Sc. or whatever.  With all these things, you just have to look at the data yourself and not rely on some numbskull from the MEDIA to be able to distill it for you.  Why?  'Cause 90% of the time, that numbskull is less educated and dumber than you.  It's like taking surf lessons from the guy out in August with a 5/4 w/hood and swim goggles flailing in the soup on his rental foamtop (waxed on the bottom) yet will get in front of a camera and claim to have "researched" surfing to give you his 30-sec "surfs up dude!" report on how it's properly done meanwhile with some strategic product placement for your own killer webbed paddle gloves and/or leading into advert for a nissan xterra so you too can be a rad charger with your fashionable lumberjack good-looks and flannel shirt!

    You bring up a couple of very interesting and difficult realities - one of which is this:

    When a new drug is broght to the market, it must prove to the FDA, through clinical trials, that it is both safe and effective for it's indication for use. Now let's take the case of Vioxx - which was launched in 1999 as a safer alternative for the treatment of pain than traditional ibuprofen. The drug was so good in the minds of the medical community and the patients that took it, that along with it's cousin Celebrex, the two actually became the number 1 and 2 selling drugs in the world - until the world came crashing down - Vioxx was withdrawn from the market in 2004 due to potentially fatal side effects.

    So how did Vioxx get approved as safe and effective if it could kill people? Why didnt the FDA know this up front??

    Here's a summary of the data that presented to the FDA that led to Vioxx's approval for treatment of the most common form of arthritis, osteoarthris, abrreviated OA:

    "Vioxx was evaluated in placebo- and active-controlled trials for the treatment of osteoarthritis (OA) of the knee and hip. The trials enrolled approximately 3,900 OA subjects and were six to 86 weeks in duration. Treatment with Vioxx 12.5 mg and 25 mg once daily produced improvement in patient and physician global assessments and in the WOMAC (Western Ontario and McMaster Universities) osteoarthritis questionnaire. In all OA clinical studies, once-daily treatment in the morning with Vioxx 12.5 mg and 25 mg was associated with a significant reduction in joint stiffness upon first awakening in the morning. Additionally, Vioxx (at 12.5 mg and 25 mg doses) was shown to be comparable to ibuprofen 800 mg TID and diclofenac 50 mg TID in the treatment of the signs and symptoms of OA."

    I highlighted the unfortunate flaw in our system - a flaw to which there is no solution (I'll explain.) The drug was tested in 3,900 individuals - which sounds like a lot - until you consider that the drug was prescribed for perhaps 10 times that many in the first hours or even minutes of it's availability on the market, and in the year 2000, there were over 40 MILLION prescriptions written for Vioxx. All based on studies involving less than 4000 people.

    Clearly what this means is that we learn FAR more in postmarketing surveillance of drugs and drug side effects/adverse effects than we EVER could in premarketing studies  - even a study of 4000 people is complex and wildly expensive to do. And while these studies are absolutely necessary and useful in preventing the launch of obviously flawed products, they obviously can't possibly serve to identify every side effect that might emerge when the drug is launched into broad use nationally and internationally.

    Bottom line? It's the old adage that i can still hear my family physician telling me when I first entered Pharmacy school. I'll paraphrase..he said, "Son, let me tell you something about medicines. Don't be the first to use 'em, and don't be the last." He was a wise old physician. I never forgot his words.

    All that said, it' important to put this in context and make sure that we draw a distinction between a newly developed chemical entity such as Vioxx and what's happening here in with vaccines:

    There is hardly ANYTHING more widely studied and more closely scrutinized than vaccines and the vaccine industry. The postmarketing surveillance of vaccines is beyond extraordinary - it's simply tremendous. I still would not rush to use a newly developed vaccine for a less common illness - I might wait a cycle before vaccinating unless a major public health crisis was erupting - but with the hundreds of millions of dollars that have been spent studying and analyzing the data, and all of the post marketing surveillance and testing and major studies done, countless of which have been funded by independent organizations that have then been submitted and peer reviewed by the best scientific organizations we have, I have no fear whatsoever of the standard vaccines for Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Polio, Chicken Pox, Tetanus, and Influenza.
    Meet me in the Land of Hope and Dreams.

     

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