Author Topic: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism  (Read 2563 times)

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Offline Årne Longbörgenssen

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Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
« Reply #105 on: March 31, 2010, 07:33:58 PM »
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  • (PART 3 0f 3 )

    In additional analyses we examined data using inpatients only. This was done to elucidate the contribution of the outpatient registration to the change in incidence. The same trend with an increase in the incidence rates from 1990 until the end of the study period was seen.
    In other words, Madsen et al considered the possibility that adding outpatient records to inpatient records beginning in 1994 might change the results. They tested for that possibility and determined that the addition of outpatient cases did not change the trend of increasing autism diagnoses. Again, RFK, Jr. is either grossly ignorant of the facts or lying through his. (Take your pick--again.) The same is true of J.B. Handley when he repeats the same misinformation time and time again, particularly on his Fourteen Studies website, and and of Ginger Taylor when she in her arrogance of ignorance parrots the same lie. Come to think of it, so is SafeMinds when it touts the fact that many of the study authors are employed by Statens Serum Institut (SSI), claiming that it is a conflict of interest because as a "government-owned vaccine manufacturer," supposedly SSI makes a lot of money off of vaccines and would be liable legally if thimerosal in vaccines were found to cause autism. Believe it or not, this distortion was dealt with by a guest blogger Kristjan Wager (whose regular blog is here) way back in 2006. Not surprisingly, it's utter nonsense born of a misunderstanding (either unwitting or deliberate) of the medical and legal systems in Denmark. Unfortunately, anti-vaccine lies never die; like a certain undead dictator, they always rise again.

    Meanwhile, Not A Doctor, Not A Scientist (Mark Blaxill, in case you forgot), along with No Longer a Journalist (Dan Olmsted) lay down flaming stupid like this:

    Thorsen, of course, is pre-eminently one of those leading scientists and was a co-author of a New England Journal of Medicine study on the MMR. Thorsen and Aarhus, as we've reported for years, made important contributions to some of the most influential autism-vaccine mercury (thimerosal) studies - studies disputed as poorly done and unconvincing by critics that over the years have grown to include the head of a panel mandated by Congress to study the issue. But based on five studies, three of which included Aarhus - and one of which Thorsen co-authored -- the U.S. Institute of Medicine concluded in 2004 that "the evidence now favors rejection of a relationship between thimerosal and autism."
    Here's what's going on. In the wake of debacle the implosion of Andrew Wakefield represented, the anti-vaccine movement needed a distraction badly, and they needed it fast. It would be even better if the distraction were one that they could spin to make it look as though there were some dark corruption at the heart of the vaccine science that has exonerated vaccines as a cause of the "autism epidemic." Like manna from heaven, Dr. Thorsen's case dropped seemingly from the sky. I'm going to admit right now that I have no idea of Dr. Thorsen is actually guilty of absconding with $2 million in grant money. He may well have, and if he did justice needs to be done. He needs to be caught and tried. But here's the rub.

    It makes absolutely no difference to the science exonerating vaccines or thimerosal in vaccines as a cause of autism whether Thorsen is a criminal and thief or not.

    As one of my readers pointed out, trying to argue that because Thorsen may have fled with stolen money is akin to arguing that if the fourth co-author of one of Einstein's papers describing the Theory of Relativity ran off with $2 million it would somehow invalidate the Theory of Relativity. Maybe J.B. Handley, No Longer a Journalist, RFK Jr., or Not a Doctor Not a Scientist can help me out here. Was there an allegation against Poul Thorsen of actual scientific--rather than financial--fraud of which I wasn't aware? Was there an allegation that somehow this alleged financial fraud had anything whatsoever to do with the design or excecution of Danish studies that failed to find a link between either MMR or thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism? Is there any evidence anywhere that Poul Thorsen committed scientific misconduct on the order of what Andrew Wakefield did? Seriously. I don't see anything in any of the number of vicious attacks on Poul Thorsen (who may or may not be a criminal), the SSI (which doesn't deserve them), or Aarhus University in Denmark (which also doesn't deserve them). It's a pure smear against these latter two institutions, guilt by association.

    In other words, it's very typical of the anti-vaccine movement. The bottom line is that this is not a scientific scandal. It is a financial scandal that happens to involve a scientist.

    Here's the other thing to remember. Even if RFK, Jr., Mark Blaxill, J.B. Handley, Dan Olmsted, and the rest of the merry band of anti-vaccine loons currently attacking these institutions were completely correct and the Danish studies were actually hopelessly tainted by Thorsen's alleged criminality--even if both studies were completely expunged from the medical literature--it would not change the scientific conclusion that neither MMR nor thimerosal-containing vaccines. That's because of a little pesky thing known as reproducibility. The Danish studies are not the only studies exonerating thimerosal as a cause of autism. There are Canadian, U.K., and U.S. studies whose results are concordant with those of Madsen et al.

    For the anti-vaccine movement, the problem with the idea that thimerosal-containing vaccines cause autism was always that it makes a testable hypothesis. Remove the thimerosal from vaccines, and autism rates should plummet. This experiment has been tried in at least three countries, and the results have always been the same. Autism rates continued to rise after thimerosal was removed from childhood vaccines. Indeed, thimerosal exposure from the vaccine schedule in the U.S. is currently lower than it was in the 1980s (there is still trace thimerosal in some childhood vaccines, and the flu vaccine still has thimerosal), but there has not been a decline in autism prevalence to what it was in the 1980s. The hypothesis that thimerosal causes autism has been roundly falsified, not just by the Danish studies but by several other studies.

    In the end, anti-vaccine propagandists are very much like creationists and other cranks. They focus on the person more than the science, and they labor under the delusion that there is a single study (or tiny handful of studies) that are the whole support for the scientific conclusions they despise and that, if destroyed, would lead to the edifice of the science they hate collapsing. That's why they prefer to attack persons rather than use evidence and reason to argue ideas. It's also why they are always seeking that one study that they can tear down and thus "prove" that evolution didn't happen, vaccines cause autism, the moon landing never happened, or the Mossad and the Bush administration were beind 9/11.


    ADDENDUM: Further confirming that Thorsen was not a major player in the Pediatrics and NEJM publications reporting the Danish studies is this article at Philly.com:

    In 2002, Thorsen was the sixth named author of a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine that analyzed whether where is a connection between the MMR vaccine and autism by examining 537,303 children born in Denmark from 1991 through 1998.
    The researchers concluded that their data provided "strong evidence" that there is no link.

    "Poul Thorsen had absolutely no influence on the conclusions regarding this paper," wrote Mads Melbye, head of the division of epidemiology at the Statens Serum Institut in Copenhagen and senior author of the study, in response to e-mailed questions.

    "Thorsen was not actively involved in the analysis and interpretation of the results of this paper," Melbye said.

    The second study, published in Pediatrics in 2003, examined 956 Danish children diagnosed with autism from 1971 to 2000. It concluded the incidence of autism increased in Denmark after thimerosal was removed from vaccines.

    Kreesten Meldgaard Madsen, the lead author, said Thorsen played a minor role.

    "Dr. Thorsen was not in a position to change or compromise the data," Madsen wrote. "Dr. Thorsen was part of the review cycle, but never very active in giving input. Dr. Thorsen never had access to the raw data nor the analysis of the data."

    Which is pretty much what I would have expected based on his position in the list of co-authors. Of course, this makes me wonder why his name was on either paper at all. Ah, well, that's academia; you can sometimes get your name on papers for which you did very little work.

    In the meantime, the comments after the Philly.com article make baby Jesus cry, so full of anti-vaccine pseudoscience, misinformation, and outright lies are they. The anti-vaccine contingent is there in full force, polluting the discussion thread with their ignorance. Come to think of it, they're there in the comments of RFK Jr.'s HuffPo article, too.
    « Last Edit: March 31, 2010, 07:36:13 PM by Thorium Longoboardi »
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    Offline BlueBerry

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #106 on: April 27, 2010, 09:18:43 PM »
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  • really good vaccination show on pbs right now. Very interesting

    Offline Crackie Onassis

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #107 on: April 28, 2010, 07:36:48 AM »
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  • It reads like a Henning Menkel book.

    Tension Myositis Syndrome: Real cause of pain or quackery?
    So heavy you can't even pick it up.

    Online SeaCliff

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #108 on: April 28, 2010, 09:57:10 AM »
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  • I tried to fight through the last handful of posts, but my eyes started bleeding and I had to stop.

    The clash of science and emotion is painful. It always is.

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    Offline BlueBerry

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #109 on: April 28, 2010, 05:45:28 PM »
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  • Those who can do, those that can't critique.
     The Documentary was really helpful and informative to me.  I just felt relieved with some of the topics they covered and some of the Vac-shots discussed. This thread has had my head spinning and very worried. Now, if only for a little while, some mental peace.
    I don't have a science background so I kind of have to trust most or many of these scientist who says it's probably better to have your child vaccinated then not. I trust my Doc who was pretty insistent but was also willing to spread the shots over a period of time. 1 or 2 shots per sesh. 

    Online Harry Balzsac

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #110 on: September 14, 2010, 10:36:38 AM »
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  • A new study, same result.  There is no scientific support that connects Thimerisol in vaccines to increased rates of autism.  Seems to me that the families of autism-spectrum children would be better served if research efforts were focused on other potential causes. 
     
    Here's a link to the study from the American Academy of Pediatrics (see link to full study in PDF on left hand side of page, but its not free)
    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/126/3/457?maxtoshow=&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=autism&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&volume=126&issue=3&resourcetype=HWCIT
     
    Brief article about the study, from Reuters.
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100913/hl_nm/us_mercury_autism
    « Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 10:47:09 AM by Harry Balzsac »

    Offline Årne Longbörgenssen

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #111 on: September 14, 2010, 12:57:18 PM »
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  • whatsamadda ? arguing about mosques and islam and religious freedom weren't enough for you ? you gotta dredge this thing up again ?

    provocateur.
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    Online onefinookas

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #112 on: September 14, 2010, 01:14:54 PM »
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  • Bubba et al, I cant say Im a scientist or even as well educated as most of you, but I can see first hand the effects autism has on children and their surrounding families.  Now can I say that its a vaccination or anything else that causes autism or a crappy luck of the draw, nope I have no clue.  But tomorrow I will be down in LB with 165 autistic kids and 400 adults that deal with autism everyday of their lives.  Not all of them blame vaccinations on autism not even 25% but I challenge any of you to spout your scientific jumbo at a parent who had a child with a small cold prior to vaccination than immediately post vaccination ran 104 degree plus fevers and were never the same again.  I know three separate children whose parents tell similar stories, you can speak with all of them tomorrow and you can all tell them how right you are and they wrong, regardless of what they witnessed first hand.  I think its like going to a vietnam vets rallye and saying to the vets, "hey agent orange didnt fark you up, the war fucked you up or most likely you were fucked up to begin with".  Now instead of wasting 8 pages arguing about it or 14 pages about a mosque 10 blocks from ground zero why dont we all give back some of our precious interweb time by volunteering at tomorrow or friday's Surfer Healing's events.
    "Long Beach Rule you cant stand up on a bodyboard." Guillespe.  "I have the rules, it doesn't say that anywhere" me.  "Its our rule, its always been our rule, I make the rules" guillespe.  "Thats not really fair you just made that rule up" me.  "go to the surf beach" Guillespe.  "Wont I get kicked out for ridind a bodyboard" me. "Yes" Guillespe. Damned if I do, Damned if I dont.  We love LB

    Online Harry Balzsac

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #113 on: September 14, 2010, 01:34:36 PM »
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  • I'm not a scientist, either.  You seem to suggest that, by posting information like this, I'm insensitive or something.  That isn't fair.  One of my very close friends has a child with ASD. 
     
    My point is simply that the parents of children w/autism would be better served if the limited resources available were directed toward finding a cure, as opposed to chasing the Thimerisol rabbit down a hole.  Its an unproductive dead end.  The Wakefield study that initially established the purported connection has been conclusively demonstrated to be fradulent, yet people persist in making the connection to the detriment, in my view, of people suffering with ASD. 

    Online onefinookas

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #114 on: September 16, 2010, 01:43:18 PM »
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  • yeah I mentioned this case before but I was told by several lawyer types that I was mistaken about the case and the verdict.  go figure.   
    "Long Beach Rule you cant stand up on a bodyboard." Guillespe.  "I have the rules, it doesn't say that anywhere" me.  "Its our rule, its always been our rule, I make the rules" guillespe.  "Thats not really fair you just made that rule up" me.  "go to the surf beach" Guillespe.  "Wont I get kicked out for ridind a bodyboard" me. "Yes" Guillespe. Damned if I do, Damned if I dont.  We love LB

    Online Harry Balzsac

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #115 on: September 16, 2010, 02:05:53 PM »
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  • It was a settlement, not a verdict.  Its an important distinction.  So is the distinction made by the goverment as to whether the vaccine is the cause of the child's autism or the autism is the result of an already-present mitochondrial disorder that was aggravated by the vaccines (a fact the govenment conceded).
     
    It seems to me that there is still no credible proof that the vaccines cause autism.  The study I posted above confirms my thought that the resources available would be better spent trying to determine what causes autism.  If that makes me a bad guy, so be it. 
     
    Its nice that I can always count on 16Afellow to be condescending.

    Online onefinookas

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #116 on: September 16, 2010, 03:24:41 PM »
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  • as an attorney, would you have told this family to wait for a verdict or take this settlement, it seemed like the trial had gone on for some time.  And against a giant medical company would you consider a settlement a victory?
    "Long Beach Rule you cant stand up on a bodyboard." Guillespe.  "I have the rules, it doesn't say that anywhere" me.  "Its our rule, its always been our rule, I make the rules" guillespe.  "Thats not really fair you just made that rule up" me.  "go to the surf beach" Guillespe.  "Wont I get kicked out for ridind a bodyboard" me. "Yes" Guillespe. Damned if I do, Damned if I dont.  We love LB

    Online Harry Balzsac

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #117 on: September 16, 2010, 03:34:28 PM »
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  • as an attorney, would you have told this family to wait for a verdict or take this settlement, it seemed like the trial had gone on for some time.  And against a giant medical company would you consider a settlement a victory?
    I would have advised them to settle and I would absolutely consider the settlement a victory for the client, especially in light of the fact that the medical evidence does not support the claim that vaccines cause autism. 
     
    Not sure why (maybe because I said he is condescending), but 16ASteadyrock pulled his initial post with the link to the CBS News story about the Poling award.  For reference, here it is below. 
     
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20015982-10391695.html
    « Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 03:42:55 PM by Harry Balzsac »

    Offline Årne Longbörgenssen

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #118 on: September 16, 2010, 04:05:06 PM »
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  • i pulled the posts.

    i can't take the repetitive imbecility.

    long live tyranny and censorship !!
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    Online Harry Balzsac

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    Re: Finally: Vaccination DOESN'T Cause Autism
    « Reply #119 on: September 16, 2010, 04:08:38 PM »
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  • i pulled the posts.

    i can't take the repetitive imbecility.

    long live tyranny and censorship !!
    Um, I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with that move, Doc.  Plus, I don't think imbecility is a word. 

     

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